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Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

oxide.computer

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Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#121

Post by bcantrill »

paxys wrote: post #105
mmcclure wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the way you're accusing them of. > I assume they are all giving every employee the same % of equity as the founders? No? And then in this latest comment, you're again clipping off the part that pretty succinctly addresses your original question. > ...but in short, equity compensates for risk – and in a startup, risk reduces over time: the first employee takes much more risk than the hundredth So, connecting th…

Say two employees join the company today – one with 30 years of industry experience and another right out of college – would they get the same equity? What about someone joining as a VP and another one a support tech? According to the founder they should all get the same, because they are taking the same amount of risk. But is that really the case? What about bonus targets? Commissions? And all other forms of compens…

You would be guessing wrong. If it helps to understand Oxide a bit: we have had ~2000 applications and we have 60 employees (a level of oversubscription in part because of this very blog entry, published in 2021). It is exceedingly unlikely (though not impossible) that we would hire someone straight out of school, and one of the surprisingly challenging things at Oxide has been turning away people who could quite potentially be terrific contributors.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#122

Post by jedberg »

Overall I really like this -- I think it makes a ton of sense for a startup, where the expectation is that most of the hires will contribute equally. You might end up having senior people self select out for the "low" comp, but others won't care because they believe the equity will make up the difference.

But I take issue with this part:

> As for how equity is determined, it really deserves its own in-depth treatment, but in short, equity compensates for risk – and in a startup, risk reduces over time: the first employee takes much more risk than the hundredth.

I don't think it's correct. Someone who joins with 25 years of experience is taking a lot more risk than someone who joins with 5 years of experience. The first person is most likely on their last job or close to it -- they don't have a lot of runway left to "take another chance". The person early in their career will have many chances to take new risks.

OP didn't get into it, but I hope they consider that when the look at the equity part of compensation.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#123

Post by neilv »

I like this idea. If I'm in another early startup where everyone has to be really good, I might propose it.

We'd need to keep having attractive enough work and environment, and promising enough equity lottery ticket, that others can't just hire away our people by paying 2x to 5x more TC.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#124

Post by bcantrill »

jedberg wrote: post #118
bcantrill wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am SO baffled. First, this post is two years old -- and has been discussed on HN several times[0][1], but the tenor of the comments here now is just so... vitriolic. I would like to do a blog post on an update on this (the dollar figure is now $191K as the blog post indicates, but the number of employees is now 60) and in particular reflect on some of its many surprising ramifications (all positive), but honestly s…

I think it's a result of the industry being on a downswing, and a lot of unemployed engineers, who have recently seen rank and file getting laid off while execs get bonuses. People are very bitter about comp right now, so it's spilling over into this discussion.

But you would think that such folks would see the value in the model? I mean, I get that trust is at a very low point but wouldn't folks see the value in a model that focuses on (among other things) fostering mutual trust? There is clearly a lot of anger out there, and I don't know if that's part of a broader trend or not.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#125

Post by slyall »

It's a little weird because while $191k is a lot of money to most people (it is twice what I make) but it isn't a lot of money in the Bay Area, especially for an experienced tech person.

More importantly Oxide is only (AFAIK) employing senior people who could make more at another company. They don't have Junior programmers or Helpdesk people on $191k.

It seems to very much be instead of a startup paying "minimum/ramen wage" plus options etc they are paying "middle class bay area wage" + options.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#126

Post by hdisllcn »

sidlls wrote: post #115
armadsen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a software engineer, live in an area with a way lower cost of living than the Bay Area, work for a company almost exactly the same size, and $191k would be a significant pay cut for me. It really isn’t a lot depending on your role, level of experience, etc, and that’s extra true for the Bay Area.

You're an extreme outlier, then. Most Bay Area software salaries are going to cap out around $190k - $230k range, except at FAANG or FAANG-like companies.

I don’t think this is accurate (and it is not in my experience)

levels.fyi puts the median salary for _juniors_ at 180k and the 90th percentile at 230k. The data is obviously imperfect but on average it’s fairly accurate. My personal experience also aligns with this.

Senior is around 300-500k and Staff/Manager can get extremely silly.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#127

Post by jedberg »

bcantrill wrote: post #124
jedberg wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a result of the industry being on a downswing, and a lot of unemployed engineers, who have recently seen rank and file getting laid off while execs get bonuses. People are very bitter about comp right now, so it's spilling over into this discussion.

But you would think that such folks would see the value in the model? I mean, I get that trust is at a very low point but wouldn't folks see the value in a model that focuses on (among other things) fostering mutual trust? There is clearly a lot of anger out there, and I don't know if that's part of a broader trend or not.

I think people are just going straight for "what's the catch", "how does this create greater benefits for the founders?". I even replied to someone who said "I was waiting for the other shoe to drop" and the complained about the 100% insurance coverage being unfair.

People are super bitter at execs right now, and the vitriol here is not justified.

FWIW I really like it, although I would love to know more about how equity is determined.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#129

Post by bcrosby95 »

nebula8804 wrote: post #53
alfalfasprout wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... $190k sounds a lot except in any HCOL area (SF, NY, LA, Seattle, heck even Portland has skyrocketed) it's going to feel very tight with three kids.

190 isn't enough for LA? I was thinking of moving there while making ~120k. Granted I have no kids or anything but I thought 120k could make it in LA?

I make 150k in LA, with 3 kids, and am the primary income earner. It kinda depends on where you live, LA is a big place with a hugely varying cost of living. I live in the suburbs and it's enough. If I lived in Venice I couldn't afford rent.

Re: Oxide pays all employees $191,227 (Bay Area startup)

#130

Post by darth_avocado »

sidlls wrote: post #115
armadsen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a software engineer, live in an area with a way lower cost of living than the Bay Area, work for a company almost exactly the same size, and $191k would be a significant pay cut for me. It really isn’t a lot depending on your role, level of experience, etc, and that’s extra true for the Bay Area.

You're an extreme outlier, then. Most Bay Area software salaries are going to cap out around $190k - $230k range, except at FAANG or FAANG-like companies.

The median Bay Area salary for all levels is about 230k, so closer to the top of your suggested range. 190k would be a 20% lower than median pay, so definitely lower than usual for sure.
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