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Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

sfchronicle.com

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Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#121

Post by gameman144 »

astrange wrote: post #116
beebmam wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm misrepresenting you here, but are you claiming that the reason that something is invented is always the reason why it continues to be used?

Now it's probably because people don't like "traffic" outside their homes, but basically yes, that's why single-family zoning is still in place. It's extremely silly to want to ban eg corner stores in your neighborhood. In SF where people have discovered "left-NIMBYism", people will now argue that keeping it is fighting racism, but then if you go into the suburbs they'll still happily argue the original position.

The idea that the reason something was made defines its current reason for existing seems demonstrably wrong, though.

Consider the microwave magnetron: invented to mess with radar, but now in every kitchen.

Maybe the reasons haven't changed in thisinstance, but holding that as a rule seems pretty incorrect.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#122

Post by astrange »

gameman144 wrote: post #121
astrange wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now it's probably because people don't like "traffic" outside their homes, but basically yes, that's why single-family zoning is still in place. It's extremely silly to want to ban eg corner stores in your neighborhood. In SF where people have discovered "left-NIMBYism", people will now argue that keeping it is fighting racism, but then if you go into the suburbs they'll still happily argue the original position.

The idea that the reason something was made defines its current reason for existing seems demonstrably wrong, though. Consider the microwave magnetron: invented to mess with radar, but now in every kitchen. Maybe the reasons haven't changed in this instance, but holding that as a rule seems pretty incorrect.

Luckily we don't have to argue about abstractions since we can just go look at land use.

I do think a lot of people want to keep single family zoning because they think it makes their properties more valuable but 1. historical segregation is part of that and 2. if your home price goes up, that only makes you richer as long as you don't want to buy any other homes that've also gone up.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#123

Post by klipt »

astrange wrote: post #117
nemo44x wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s just completely untrue. This is a common tactic today to say something was created for purposes so the entire concept is bad naturally. See how activists say policing was invented to catch slaves or some ridiculous claim. There’s a bunch of others.

I said literally and I meant literally. You can just look up the Berkeley city council meeting minutes! That's why they said they were doing it!

But are you sure Berkeley was the first place in the world to create a residential only zoning? If not, they don't deserve the inventor label.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#124

Post by gowld »

nemo44x wrote: post #103
eric-hu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a search to check the history of this claim, but maybe I wasn’t searching for the right thing. Would you mind sharing a link?

No it’s just completely untrue. This is a common tactic today to say something was created for purposes so the entire concept is bad naturally. See how activists say policing was invented to catch slaves or some ridiculous claim. There’s a bunch of others.

It's a shame that our national history is ridiculous.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#125

Post by eternityforest »

throw009 wrote: post #106
astrange wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Residential-only zoning is "the bad kind of zoning". It wasn't invented to keep factories away from homes; it was /literally/ invented in Berkeley to stop Chinese immigrants from being able to afford homes by running laundry businesses out of them.

[flagged]

Groundwater? It all goes in the same sewer, and the water you drink comes from the same tap. What does it matter if it's 5 miles away or next door, when we don't locally source water or dispose of waste locally?

Large centralized industries are probably going to be more efficient than small ones, but maybe not accounting for customer travel related pollution.

There's air pollution, of course, but few people want to ban wood stoves, and I doubt many medium industries you'd find without zoning pollute as much as 6 if those on one block.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#126

Post by DiggyJohnson »

Cardinal7167 wrote: post #80
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admittedly rolled my eyes at the WP link. To atone for this, I’ve copy and pasted the relevant references from that line in the History section: [1] Baldassari, Erin; Solomon, Molly (October 5, 2020). "The Racist History of Single-Family Home Zoning". NPR. Archived from the original on November 14, 2020. https://web.archive.org/web/20201114004918/https://www.kqed.... [3] Hansen, Louis (March 1, 2021). "Is this the…

Why did you roll your eyes at it if it provided exactly the correct type of referential value it’s supposed to?

Well because I had to click thru WP itself.

Also, as a sibling comment put it, it does weird me out that all cited sources are from such a limited pool.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#127

Post by pwinnski »

nemo44x wrote: post #103
eric-hu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a search to check the history of this claim, but maybe I wasn’t searching for the right thing. Would you mind sharing a link?

No it’s just completely untrue. This is a common tactic today to say something was created for purposes so the entire concept is bad naturally. See how activists say policing was invented to catch slaves or some ridiculous claim. There’s a bunch of others.

Yes, it is absolutely ridiculous that slave patrols existed and formed the basis for later police departments in the south. It is also ridiculous that labor-busting squads existed in the north, which formed the basis for later police departments in the north.

The history is there, it is what it is, as ridiculous as that is. You might argue that modern police have far outgrown their origins, and then it would be up to readers to decide which whether your claim is also ridiculous, given how many police departments generally exhibit qualities consonant with their origins.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#128

Post by pigsty »

throw009 wrote: post #106
astrange wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Residential-only zoning is "the bad kind of zoning". It wasn't invented to keep factories away from homes; it was /literally/ invented in Berkeley to stop Chinese immigrants from being able to afford homes by running laundry businesses out of them.

[flagged]

Living in a city where laundromats (even moderately large professional ones) are nowhere near residential areas is, to say it briefly, stupid.

You want them right near your home so you can drop by any time. Nobody wants to go 45 minutes out of their way just to drop off some clothes.

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#129

Post by pwinnski »

klipt wrote: post #123
astrange wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said literally and I meant literally. You can just look up the Berkeley city council meeting minutes! That's why they said they were doing it!

But are you sure Berkeley was the first place in the world to create a residential only zoning? If not, they don't deserve the inventor label.

Okay, they didn't invent racist policies that persist to this day, they just furthered their racist goals by using existing policies that persist to this day. Better?

Re: Bay Area homeowner is the face of California’s latest housing drama

#130

Post by leviathant »

mherdeg wrote: post #99
edgyquant wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should clarify “in SF” since this isn’t true for the actual history of residential zoning (which originated in New York)

Gosh, growing up near Cleveland I always thought zoning "started" in Euclid Heights. I guess there are lots of different firsts?

Feels a bit like the oddly pervasive "Our city is x on the top 10 list of places Russia would nuke first because of local industry y" myth that existed in places all across America.
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