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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#121

Post by ajross »

screye wrote: post #95
thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

In fact, there is a huge disconnect between people who design similar systems (Vision, safety, self driving, robotics, simulations) and those who use them. The criticism of Tesla is coming from experts, not jealous competitors. The problem with systems where 99% is a failing grade, is that 99% of the time, they work great. The other 1% you die. No one is against FSD or safer tech. They are against Tesla's haphazard 2…

> The other 1% you die

Um... no one died. I understand your point is hyperbole, but you're deploying it in service to what you seem to claim is serious criticism coming from experts. Which experts are claiming FSD beta killed someone? They aren't. So... maybe the "experts" aren't saying what you think they're saying?

> Wanna hear about this new fangled tech that avoids 100% of accidents, has fully-coordinated swarm robotics between all the cars, never swerves and can operate in all weather + lighting conditions ? It's called a street car.

And this is just laughably wrong. Street cars (because they operate on streets) get into accidents every day, often with horrifying results (because they weigh 20+ tons). They are surely safer than routine passenger cars, but by the standards you set yourself they "aren't safe" and thus must be banned, right?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#122

Post by lolinder »

rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

> To be fair, though, Tesla has no sensors other than cameras, and I believe the Mercedes has a half dozen or so, several radars and even a lidar.

This doesn't mitigate Tesla's gross ethical violations in letting this thing loose, it makes them worse. Tesla knew that cameras alone would be harder to make work than cameras plus radar plus lidar, and they shouldn't be lauded for attempting FSD with just cameras. It's an arbitrary constraint that they imposed on themselves that is putting people's lives in danger.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#123

Post by ceejayoz »

billfor wrote: post #116
root_axis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD is terrible. I have it, it's dangerous. If I had to go 5 miles through city streets I'd sooner trust a human after 3 shots of tequila before I'd trust FSD every time.

Disagree. I've had the beta for a year and drive in NYC. It has been mostly flawless considering all scenarios it has to handle. It does make the occasional mistake but (1) it's a beta and (2) I'm responsible for monitoring and correcting it. Agree that those that expected more should be entitled to a refund if they so desire.

Consider the possibility that you might both be right. Two people may have vastly different experiences with FSD, depending on the routes they take and other variables.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#124

Post by bdcravens »

pirate787 wrote: post #59
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

[flagged]

How about Tesla allow users in the beta for free then? Shouldn't the logic of waiting apply to Tesla, by charging for something that could save lives?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#125

Post by breck »

thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

Exactly.

I think a lot of "people" online are paid shills.

HN should severely downrank any "opinion" posts from anon accounts.

I have a Tesla with FSD and it's incredible. Though it drives way worse than me, it drives pretty darn good, and will save a ton of lives and change the world by freeing up a lot of time for people to do more important things.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#126

Post by mrb »

adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

I have FSD too, and my opinion is that although it takes unsafe actions almost on a daily basis, most of these errors are minor, easily rectified by me the driver, and most of the time it drives just fine, in fact better than a human driver. I witnessed FSD avoiding me a collision by responding faster than I could have by auto-braking when another driver ran a red light.

FSD doesn't need to be perfect to avoid accidents. In fact, if it was too perfect I'm afraid I could become very inattentive at the wheel.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#127

Post by adoxyz »

jejeyyy77 wrote: post #108
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

yeah, I don't believe you. I use it every day and have been for over a year and it's been awesome.

You can believe whatever you want. The reality is that FSD Beta is unsafe and makes the dumbest decisions. Every update I give it a try to see if anything has improved, and usually within the first 30 seconds, I end up turning it off.

Autopilot on Freeways works ok for the most part though.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#128

Post by andrewinardeer »

mbreese wrote: post #83
thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

I have a feeling the differences between experiences is heavily influenced by where you are located. There is no way they are adequately able to train across all of the locations FSD is expected to be able to work.

Australian here. We drive on the "wrong" side of the road. I have no idea if FSD even accommodates this different scenario. And if it did, and being from Melbourne, having diabolical yet somewhat logical hook turns (turning from the furthest left lane to turn right) I will bet would not even fall in FSD scope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_turn?wprov=sfla1

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#129

Post by idlewords »

causi wrote: post #5

I'm astonished consumers are still paying fifteen thousand dollars to be guinea pigs for this bullshit. No car that currently has tires on the road is going to let you fall asleep in your driveway and wake up at work.

Only a horse can do that.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#130

Post by Veserv »

enslavedrobot wrote: post #40
thepasswordis wrote: post #21

It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from using it and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet. I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a substantially safer place.

I have the same experience. I think if there was more transparency in the data around FSD related accidents the conversation would be different. The last evidence we have is Tesla stating that there have been no fatalities in 60 million miles of driving under FSD. Pretty good so far.

There is no such evidence beyond unsupported proclamations by the vendor who, by the way, has compulsively misrepresented the capabilities of the product for years. The only evidence available that is not completely tainted by a complete conflict of interest is basically Youtube videos and self reported information [1] by investors and super fans that on average show critical driving errors every few minutes and even those are tainted by self interest to over-represent the product.

Tesla’s statements should only be believed if they stop deliberately hiding the data from the CA DMV by declaring that FSD does not technically count as a autonomous driving system and is thus not subject to the mandatory reporting requirements for autonomous systems in development. If they did that then there could actually be a sound independent third party statements about their systems. Until that time their claims should be as trusted as Ford’s were on the Pinto.

[1] https://www.teslafsdtracker.com/

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