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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#121
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Well, the code is always overzealous (never met an exception), and the smaller the house the more overzealous it is. If it wasn't, we would have a much easier time persecuting people that breaks it, and much more public sympathy for large culprits that actually have much fewer (relatively to their capacity) strings over then than any random person. The same applies to fire codes.

Well, the code is always overzealous

It's only overzealous to people trying to cut corners. It's never overzealous to the people who are killed or hurt.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#122

If anything, the Turkiye government are dodging the finger of blame. The fault lies with the politicians for not stamping down hard on developers who flout building regulations and/or allowing them to construct buildings with a 'waiver' that lets them get away with substandard building.

"The fault" isn't some finite and indivisible thing that needs to be assigned to only one group of people. Politicians are at fault for not cracking down on scammers, and the scammer contractors are also at fault for being scammers. One does not diminish the other, stop thinking of fault as zero sum.

In the third world, building contractors collude with politicians and bureaucrats. This is a mutually reinforcing mechanism.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#123

How many benefitted from cheaper and more accessible housing as a result of the lax enforcement of building codes? I remain unconvinced that obscenely strict building codes are a net-positive.

That doesn't matter because earthquake deaths are big and obvious and a bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets doesn't attract news. People see "house fall, housing bad" and then demand safer construction so the death will be hidden elsewhere.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#124
This is a global problem: construction red tape and regulations are one of the most annoying and expensive to adhere to, and with real estate prices sky rocketing around the world the most tempting to cut corners on to dodge costs (they are also very difficult and expensive to inspect, unlike in restaurant business for example where it is quite easy to inspect that the kitchen is clean).

Take for example the Grenfell tower fire in London a few years ago, almost a 100 people burnt alive and it came down to the management company economising on external cladding (against regulation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#125
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

An increasing problem locally (Boulder) is the use of the permitting process to push high-cost climate goals on home owners, leading to them skipping permitting and inspection entirely. Here, you’re required to choose at least three expensive improvements from a set of eight (iirc), ranging from relatively cheap (electric vehicle charger) to very expensive (rooftop solar). My home was built in the 1970s, the bathroom…

We have the same problem in Telluride. I have to pay an extra 20k to get an upgraded circuit to charge my Rivian when I am already under the limit.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#126
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist.

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead.

Some of the rules are, but some of the rules aren't. When code calls for a maximum distance between electrical outlets, that's partially for convenience, and partly because of unsafe practices with extension cords, so there's some blood there, but if you miss the mark by a foot, it's not disasterous.

Uniform application of some rules without considerations for cost or practicality is foolish. For example, where I live, with my size house, any permitted remodeling triggers a requirement to retrofit fire sprinklers, despite the fact that I have a well which likely couldn't supply said fire sprinklers in a reasonable manner --- especially if a fire resulted in electricity being cut off, or was caused by unsafe heating choices when utility electricity was out of service (this is a common cause of house fires as I understand it). You could mitigate that with a high mounted water tank, but that's not actually required, might require substantial engineering to ensure the weight of the water and tank doesn't exceed the structure's weight bearing capacity, and would add significant maintenance to ensure the condition of the tank such that it did not leak and cause major damage to the structure. Oh, and how are you supposed to get such a tank into an attic like that anyway?

Structural requirements tend to be more likely to be written from experience though. And earthquakes and high winds have a way of striking everywhere. TR is known to be seismically active, so cutting corners on earthquake safety is a worse risk/cost tradeoff than in places where earthquakes are rare.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#127
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's partially true, but it's really a combo of both. Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. A recent affordable building in SF cost over $1 million per unit. That's completely unsustainable.

> Things like dual staircase requirements, elevator size requirements, and sprinkler requirements make it extremely expensive to build any sort of housing. And you want and need precisely that in a house with fluctuating occupants of which a high percentage will have some sort of mental health issue. Cutting corners on boarding houses will lead to fire catastrophes.

No but here's the thing: for all of those regulations, the US still has more fire deaths than most of Europe. So they're not working anyway!

https://twitter.com/MarketUrbanism/status/160882533241258393...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the code is always overzealous (never met an exception), and the smaller the house the more overzealous it is. If it wasn't, we would have a much easier time persecuting people that breaks it, and much more public sympathy for large culprits that actually have much fewer (relatively to their capacity) strings over then than any random person. The same applies to fire codes.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

I mean, it's possible for something to be simultaneously overzealous and not strict enough. If the code focuses on the wrong measures, it could end up putting unnecessary red tape, while completely failing to provide adequate safety.

I don't know enough about fire code to know whether it applies here.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#129
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Simultaneously: https://www.theurbanist.org/2023/02/07/one-stairway-is-enoug...

There are building codes that are designed to increase authentic safety, and those that are actually trying to achieve other ends, like decreasing the supply of available housing, via the claim of "safety."

"Safetyism" is everywhere: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/safetyism-is-the-water-...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#130
post #25

> In nearby Erzin county, however, not a single building collapsed. The local mayor and his predecessor told local media that they did not allow any illegal construction. Both used the same phrase: “My conscience is clear.” That mayor, Ökkeş Elmasoğlu, should perhaps run for president.

The fact that this is the exception is so sad. I don’t know how our species made it so far in spite of its own nature.

I can’t imagine how much pressure and intimidation this mayor suffered to refuse bribes from (probably very) well resourced and connected individuals/cartels.

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