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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#121

Post by pohuing »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #78
enaaem wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the USSR also held a referendum in the Baltics, but similar to Ukraine, it was after they invaded them and installed a puppet regime. The more you study history, the more you notice the same old tricks.

But was the referendum a fair and independent one, recognized and verified by the international community, or was it a sham referendum under threat of invasion, like the one in Austria for joining Nazi Germany, with a huge YES option in the middle, and a small NO option in the corner[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Austrian_Anschluss_refere...

It's noteworthy that Anschluß had huge support in the 20s and 30s but the Entente forbade a unification of the newly shrunken Austria and Germany. Had the referendum happened earlier it might well have passed without such underhanded tactics.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#122

Post by HatchedLake721 »

I highly encourage people to watch “How the United States created Vladimir Putin” that was presented in Yale University by Vladimir Pozner.

It gives another perspective that’s often ignored how US and European foreign policy has played part in shaping what Russia is today.

https://youtu.be/8X7Ng75e5gQ

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#123

Post by pelasaco »

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #90
qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

it's not colonial

> it's not colonial

What a lazy answer! for sure, it is colonial. During the imperial time, during soviet time and now in the east of Ukraine. In all periods, Russia tried to destroy the local population/settlements and tried to build Cossak/Russian defense lines.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#124

Post by neoromantique »

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #122

I highly encourage people to watch “How the United States created Vladimir Putin” that was presented in Yale University by Vladimir Pozner. It gives another perspective that’s often ignored how US and European foreign policy has played part in shaping what Russia is today. https://youtu.be/8X7Ng75e5gQ

Important to note that Vladimir Pozner has remained quiet ever since the beginning of the war.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#125

Post by pelasaco »

papito wrote: post #114
sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not colonial

No? Who is doing the killing in Ukraine right now? A lot of them don't look Slav to me at all. Russia has built the definition of an imperial army. Once I see the moscovites dying in droves for more territory (9 time zones is never enough), we can talk more.

exactly, Ukraine now, Ukraine back in the days, Chechnya, you name it.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#126

Post by justinclift »

zmgsabst wrote: post #99
asimpletune wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that nonetheless every war ever has ended as part of a diplomatic process. When this doesn’t happen you have something like the Korean War, which is technically still going on. Also it’s bonkers that someone thinks Ukraine is untrustworthy this situation. Didn’t they give up all their nuclear weapons in a signed treaty under the guarantee that Russia promised to respect their territorial integrity? Doesn…

[flagged]

> Russia and Ukraine nearly had a diplomatic solution in March, until NATO stopped them.

That's super, super, super unrealistic, as Russia has not indicated at any time they're willing to vacate Crimea.

Which is the absolute baseline for Russia to do.

Without that, anything Russia is claiming is really just a delaying tactic to let them prepare/re-equip for their next invasion wave.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#128

Post by bluGill »

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #69
CalRobert wrote: post #2

The executive summary at https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2023/en/executive-summary/ may be the more useful link

Weird that it got through with a mistake in point 2: > Russia believes that time is on its side. To keep the war machine going, Russia is ready [missing a 'to' here] raise the stakes. Russia seems to believe it can “bomb” Ukraine to the negotiating table.

I assume this was written in Estonian, for people who live and speak Estonian. It was then translated to English by a non-native English speaker for additional international purposes, but as a native speaker of English I'm not the primary audience.

Really they did a pretty good job. I could do better (as a native English speaker), but it would a lot of effort. My rough drafts (which is all you find here) are much worse.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#129

Post by qaq »

papito wrote: post #108
qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

You can't just say "Left" and "Right". That distinction has become rather meaningless. While the Right as a whole is leaning stronger and stronger in at least silent support of people like Putin (Christian defender of the white race and all that), the Left does not have this problem. There is a small crew of commies and tankies that drool over Putin, but us left-leaning folk laugh at them as much as anyone.

They might not drool over Putin but they are the most effective people to push the stop arming Ukraine narrative. Also again I've pretty much never seen them criticise russia for being a colonial empire with pretty brutal practices towards the colonised nations (outside of Chechen wars). Compare the amount of criticism Israel gets to Russia from the left.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#130

Post by medo-bear »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #26
engineer_22 wrote: post #4

For context, Estonia is a NATO member with significant Russian minority population

And a former USSR country (although not willingly), and it shares a border with Russia, and it's the most remote NATO country. That said, if Russia does try anything, that will escalate the conflict and get NATO involved directly.

> former USSR country (although not willingly)

history is history, but although they werent "willingly" part of ussr, the fact of history is that many estonians (and latvians) pretty willingly welcomed the nazis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Estonia...

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