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All programming philosophies are about state

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Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#121

Post by astrange »

MarkMarine wrote: post #96
sjm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike this quote. It always comes across like it's designed to ease greedy people of their guilt for moving to the right as they earn more money. To me, being sound of mind is wanting everyone to have what you have, or at least an equal shot of getting there from wherever they had the roll of the dice of being born.

Reminds me of a great 30 rock joke, being fiscally liberal and socially conservative. Politics is really just dividing up the shared resources, which is the root of that joke. Who cares about politics and doesn’t care about the resources part? I guess after 30 people forget how to share per that quote. Never happened to me though. Personally I don’t even think it’s accurate, in my life I’ve never seen people swing fr…

> Reminds me of a great 30 rock joke, being fiscally liberal and socially conservative.

You can tell online people isn't representative because they think it's a joke when this is actually pretty common among average people. (Who aren't on a single position on the political compass but are instead "cross-pressured".)

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#123

Post by jjoonathan »

xmonkee wrote: post #100
bcherny wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“He who is not a républicain at twenty compels one to doubt the generosity of his heart; but he who, after thirty, persists, compels one to doubt the soundness of his mind.”

God, this is such condescending nonsense. The older I get, the more left I lean, because the more of the world you see the more you see what chaos our current ideology has wreaked upon it. The only people I see going the way this quote does are unthinking idiots who were fashionably "liberal" in their youth without understanding any political theory, and are now fashionably "conservative" with even lesser understandi…

Yeah, it starts condescending and gets worse once you understand the argument: "as an elite, you will learn in your 20s how the policies and goals of conservatism are self-serving, and you will therefore adopt them."

In my 20s I bought a house, started filling a brokerage account, started managing people -- so I certainly started to feel those incentives, but I am both principled enough to not act entirely out of self interest and wise enough to realize that I would have to be considerably wealthier before the capital-side incentives actually overtook the labor-side incentives in their importance to my bottom line.

Unfortunately, even these meager principles and this sliver of wisdom are rare enough that "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" abound.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#124

Post by astrange »

tweroiu23o43 wrote: post #10

No it is not. Lisp stands in stark contrast to this. The lisp philosophy is this: as with every science, you mould your language to your problem, not the other way around.

Sure, because they haven't heard of the rule of least power, which is why it's sometimes good for languages to be about stopping you from doing the wrong thing vs. easily doing things.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#126

Post by bradrn »

kazinator wrote: post #73

Imperative: modifying state is the point of a bit-flipping machine; get out of my way so I can have fun! OOP: OK, I mostly had enough fun, can we try to tame the bit-flipping chaos with real-world analogies, without deflating all the fun? Functional: Any Monad is by definition an Endofunctor, which also means it's an object in the category of Endofunctors, where the monadic μ(flatMap) and η(unit) operators satisfy th…

I feel I should point out that that ‘functional’ quote is (a) only applicable to pure, strongly-typed functional languages, and (b) pretty much irrelevant unless you happen to be interested in category theory.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#127

Post by kilgnad »

I agree with the imperative, oop and functional part. The declarative part is just stretching it.

It's like saying using chatGPT to write your code is just a form of state management. Technically yes, but this viewpoint is overly pedantic.

Declarative programming is therefore more then just state management.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#128

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

bhk wrote: post #55

As someone coming from a functional perspective I would humbly characterize my position as: > Functional - Modifying state is hard to get correct; so let's focus on the rest of the problem (the part we can get right!) Pushing state to the edges is actually just a consequence of this impulse. In the end it isn't a satisfying solution, because you end up with every bit of low-level, inconsequential state percolating up…

The trick of bubbling to the top is to keep the top nearby. Like erlang. Functional process in an imperative message passing shell.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#129

Post by jongjong »

ioquatix wrote: post #107

"All Programming is about State". All code is state. All state is code. It's turtles all the way down.

Code is logic. Data is state. To say that code is state is like saying that electrical circuits are electricity.

Code carries data in the same way that electrical circuits carry electricity.

Re: All programming philosophies are about state

#130

Post by irrational »

kazinator wrote: post #73

Imperative: modifying state is the point of a bit-flipping machine; get out of my way so I can have fun! OOP: OK, I mostly had enough fun, can we try to tame the bit-flipping chaos with real-world analogies, without deflating all the fun? Functional: Any Monad is by definition an Endofunctor, which also means it's an object in the category of Endofunctors, where the monadic μ(flatMap) and η(unit) operators satisfy th…

Isn’t OOP a subset of imperative programming and functional a subset of declarative programming?
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