Live data from Hacker News

Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

martinfowler.com

121–130 of 177 posts

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, but that narrative feels a lot like a specific example of sloppy science and poor measurement. I'm going to stand by the notion that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, even if that may create a small bias toward conventional thinking.

What's an "extraordinary claim"? And also, why do claims that are "historically dubious" automatically fall into the category of "extraordinary"? In Bayesian terms, it sounds like you are merely stating that you assign a very small prior to the "natural reasons" hypothesis. I.e., you are claiming that before looking at the evidence, you believe "natural reasons" has a 1 in 1 million (or some similarly large number) c…

Because oppression hurts real people, with real consequences. Any argument that will be used to deny people equal rights and justify mistreatment of them requires extraordinary evidence, because otherwise we end up at eugenics.

These discussions aren't theoretical; to pretend they are is actively harmful.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#122
post #87
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Martin says "Personally I find it troubling when software professionals, who ought to be good at logical thinking, can reach so easily for such circular logic."

I don't mind the downvotes, but I think my comment was misunderstood. Of course, whenever there is any type of gender-related article on HN, it gets pretty nasty pretty quickly. HN, for all the good things I can say about it, is firmly entrenched in the mindset that Martin is writing against.

And yet, still better than slashdot!

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed.. Yet, s…

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter.

As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life, social cues sometimes don't come as naturally to us as they do to many others - it takes time and effort to not be socially awkward, but it's 100% worth it.

The next time something like that happens, try reviewing exactly what happened, how things might have been misinterpreted, and how you can learn & grow from it.

Also keep in mind that there are lots of people who _are_ jerks, but gender has nothing to do with it.

Most importantly, don't let it bias you, and keep your chin up!

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, maybe it's you.

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

You realize that doesn't make it acceptable to harbor prejudices, right? The only reason you're not directly penalized for having them is that they're hard to screen for in job interviews... or were, before you gave the Google crawler trace evidence about one of yours.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#125
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the day I think the popular perception of programmers was kind of an extension of a secretary (it's just typing on toggle panels instead of a typewriter, right?) so there were lots of women stuck in secretarial positions who tried it out.

...and those secretaries were good at it. And so were the women math PhDs who could not get jobs elsewhere. And so were the women who had female mentors, and therefore failed to be chased away. All of which dumps water on the "innate abilities" trope that people keep bringing up as the null hypothesis which must be disproved, instead of the claim which requires proof. It genuinely weirds me out how many white males i…

I wasn't arguing the "women aren't good at programming" position.

My personal opinion is that the most important reason there are few women programmers, next to which any other factor fades into insignificance, is that women are simply less interested in doing it. Now that I think about it, the fact that there used to be many more women programmers when women's career options were more limited is pretty strong evidence that this is true: Now that women have more options, there are fewer women programmers.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The January 2012 issue of the Notices of the American Mathematical Society presents a comprehensive review article disagreeing that there is "plenty of evidence" women are less likely to be very good at math based on "natural causes" (whatever the hell that kind of nonsense phrase is supposed to mean), and provides plenty of evidence that any disparity is due to attitudes toward women and other sociocultural factors:…

Did you read the article? It agrees completely with the data I cited. It shows a variance ratio of 1.1-1.2 across many countries (though not all). Interestingly, it also shows very little correlation between gender equity and gender disparities in math performance. The strongest correlation it shows is that gender equity is positively correlated with math performance disparities! Gender equity seems to increase [1] m…

It agrees completely with the data I cited. It shows a variance ratio of 1.1-1.2 across many countries (though not all).

This was the most glaring example of statistical dishonesty in this paper: their data shows with perfect clarity that there's a > 1.0 male/female variance ratio for almost every country in the set, and I encourage anyone interested in this to look at their graphs and draw your own conclusions (http://imgur.com/39pja). To me, it looks like a typical noisy measurement (the authors note that the variation within a single country was about 20% from test to test, so we should expect a decently wide distribution (well, the authors don't actually admit that - as a first mathematical blunder in a series of many, they claim that 20% variation is very small and means we should expect a tight distribution)) with a mean somewhere between 1.12 and 1.15, a variance of maybe .1 (just about right for a measurement with around 20% variation, no?), and a decent bit of skew. Pretty good jumping off point for some analysis and explanation, I would think...

But not in this article. The authors merely point to those graphs and claim that they obviously disprove the greater male variance hypothesis. In other words - they point to a distribution of admittedly noisy measurements that is clearly centered around ~1.13 or so, with almost zero density below 1.0, and claim that it proves that the mean of the distribution is 1.0, (with an implicit "STFU Larry Summers"). When I first read this, I thought they were trolling me, the result is so clearly wrong.

[As an aside, it's worth noting that a variance ratio in the 1.1 to 1.2 range is enough to explain away most, if not all, of the gender imbalance in mathematics, if we make the assumption that the variance ratio is the same throughout all of mathematics education (which is not likely true - IIRC these measurements were all at the 8th grade level)]

Their argument? Because the measured variance ratios are not identical, we should ignore the mean of the distribution. Seriously, that's it. I'm not talking about a statistical calculation showing that the null hypothesis (that the variance ratio is 1.0) should not be rejected, mind you (because such a calculation would not allow us to accept the null hypothesis - a quick look at the graph is enough to be sure of that), or in fact any statistical argument at all. They quite literally claim that any variation in the measured variance means that the entire distribution is meaningless.

They also try to confuse the issue a little bit by pointing out that there's a bit of correlation between the variance ratio and the variance; while interesting and certainly worthy of further explanation (not done in this paper), this is completely and utterly irrelevant to the variance hypothesis, yet they imply that it somehow disproves it as well.

Quite frankly, the referees should have caught this, I can't remember the last time I've seen such bad statistical reasoning in a legitimate math journal. There are glaring issues all over the rest of the paper, too, where they've filtered and re-filtered data many times until they obtain the correlations that they want, where they chop data into bins in suspect ways, etc., but to actually enumerate all these errors in detail would make this a much longer rant.

It's a shame, too, because it appears that some of the article is solid, and it presents some interesting data that definitely warrants more investigation; unfortunately, they went absolutely bananas in several places, drawing completely unfounded conclusions from the data they generated, so I would be hesitant to cite this paper as proof of anything.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#127
post #85

Also: This sentiment that women should be interested in programming jobs, but aren't because they've been damaged by the patriarchy in some way, and now it's up to (predominantly) men to fix this for them - strikes me as a bit sexist. We could potentially take the Avatar/Dances With Wolves approach. A really awesome superstar male programmer could start dressing in drag and lead female programmers to victory. Or at l…

It's up to everyone in the community to fix this. No matter what their sex or race. It's just a matter of being a more open and welcoming community. I'm sure there are fellow female (and other minority) programmers reading the comments on this article feeling completely unwelcome in the programming community.

I'm one of those lady-types reading the comments here and getting the message loud and clear that no matter how interested I may be, or how talented I may become, I am not a welcome addition to this community.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#128

I was under the impression that most people had accepted that the reason more men than women do software development is that more men find it interesting than women do, not because women are less intelligent or because there's a conspiracy to keep them out. Too bad, I guess not. As an aside, my boss at the moment is a woman, and a few years ago she had to staff up significantly and hired several young women at the ju…

No.

At least, I've certainly seen no research suggesting that is true; you may believe it but "most" people don't and if they did they haven't provided evidence for that belief. If your hypothesis is correct, how do you explain the massive variation over time in gender gap even just in the United States? (citation: http://phrogram.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityS...)

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide an example of the barriers of which you speak? Here's a real-world example: A workplace where most of the (all-male) development team is using the same "bikini babe" screensaver. It's a small thing to a guy, something you may not even notice. It's a small thing to plenty of women, too. Some other women may see that as an implicit message that they aren't taken seriously as anything but a sex object. S…

Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean).

So you're saying that women aren't taken seriously because they feel like they aren't taken seriously? Did you even read the part of the article about circular logic?

I am embarrassed for you.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#130
post #85

Also: This sentiment that women should be interested in programming jobs, but aren't because they've been damaged by the patriarchy in some way, and now it's up to (predominantly) men to fix this for them - strikes me as a bit sexist. We could potentially take the Avatar/Dances With Wolves approach. A really awesome superstar male programmer could start dressing in drag and lead female programmers to victory. Or at l…

It depends on what the cause is, now doesn't it? If the problem is men's behavior it is sexist, not to mention impossible, for women to fix it.
Post reply on HN