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GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

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Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#121

Post by ogogmad »

throw0101c wrote: post #96
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

Conversely, as multi-decade Unix user, when I type in "vi" I want to get Vi, I do not want Vim starting. If I wanted Vim I would have typed in "vim".

Why?

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#122

Post by ogogmad »

kator wrote: post #47
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

By that logic we should just make "ed" the default editor. It's more like every other line oriented CLI interface element in the system than Nano is.

Ed is the right editor for a Unix simulation running inside a ChatGPT session.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#123

Post by Aperocky »

p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

You don't have to learn vim to craft a git message, most people where I work only know how to exit and they are perfectly fine using vim here or there as prompted.

If someone were to learn to use CLI to begin with, I don't mind sprinkling them with some vi. It's UX for those who are already doing CLI, not some people lingering on GUI.

Though it's not surprising that someone who believe vim has no benefit whatsoever over other editors have this take, quoth another comment that I replied to in this thread:

> I think the idea that Vim is "technically superior" should be challenged as well. I've watched, and participated in, dozens of discussions on text editors, and have never been shown a concrete piece of scientific evidence demonstrating Vim's claimed superiority according to any real-world metric.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#124

Post by kergonath »

dijit wrote: post #97
nkozyra wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like nano shipping as the default editor is a step-back. We have a less powerful tool because we want to attract newbies Perhaps, but your experience sounds like a good blueprint for what new terminal users might want. Start with nano move to more powerful tools when you need them.

my concern would be that I dont think people would reach for the more powerful tools; since they arent being pressured into learning them and its impossible to articulate the power you would get until you have it. I was extremely resistant to learn new things when I thought my current way of working was perfectly fine. It’s only retrospectively that I realise how limited I was.

> I was extremely resistant to learn new things when I thought my current way of working was perfectly fine.

It’s not the OS’ job to lecture users about their tools of choice. The Web is full of “vim is the dog’s bollocks” articles, if anyone has a modicum of interest to look at more complex tools.

Now, we have to just set EDITOR in the dotfiles for each new student we get starting their MSc project. They have 6 months to do quantum chemistry stuff, not winning flame wars about whose editor is best. And they have already a lot of inane idiosyncrasies to learn in R and the usual Python libraries.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#125

Post by hulitu »

kergonath wrote: post #120
boccaff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except when you have a different locale and language, and half your office suite have the original shortcuts, and the other half is translated like: ctrl + a (abrir, open in Portuguese) instead of select all, that is moved to ctrl + t (tudo, all in Portuguese), and many others. So, universally for English/US I guess.

My pet peeve is ctrl+g to put some text in bold in French Office. It annoys me to no end. But then, things like ctrl-o still work as it should. Even ctrl-a, now that I think of it, and I can’t see where the a would come from.

You shall see the German version. (bangs head)

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#126

Post by kapep »

dijit wrote: post #97
nkozyra wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like nano shipping as the default editor is a step-back. We have a less powerful tool because we want to attract newbies Perhaps, but your experience sounds like a good blueprint for what new terminal users might want. Start with nano move to more powerful tools when you need them.

my concern would be that I dont think people would reach for the more powerful tools; since they arent being pressured into learning them and its impossible to articulate the power you would get until you have it. I was extremely resistant to learn new things when I thought my current way of working was perfectly fine. It’s only retrospectively that I realise how limited I was.

It's also hard to articulate power if the people have no need for that power. People stay with nano because it's intuitive and good enough at editing some config files. What else would someone learning Linux even do with a text editor?

I've tried to get into vi and emacs but I honestly never found a good use case for them, even as a developer. When I edit files, the changes are usually very small and I spent most time thinking about what to change. The time it takes to execute that change is negligible. If I need to process large files, those are usually in some kind format that can be manipulated with other tools much more easily. And when it comes to programming, modern IDEs are far superior.

I don't doubt that you can be very productive with these editors but the "it's more powerful" argument always seems to mean "look how I fast I can manipulate large unstructured text files with some keyboard shortcuts magic", which is irrelevant to me.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#127

Post by torben-friis »

thanatropism wrote: post #60
torben-friis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that annoys me is that the only good thing about vim is the idea of composable modal actions. Don't get me wrong, that feature alone is powerful enough to choose vim as your editor of choice, but... There is no reason whatsoever why you couldn't have an editor with 2022's standards of UX and newbie friendliness that makes use of the same idea; it just hasn't happened. Even when modern editors adapt vim func…

It's janky, but does lapce fit your bill?

I just took a look and the docs only say there’s “vim like modal editing”. Given there’s no more info I guess it’s just vim mode? There doesn’t seem to be an effort to redesign it at least.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#128

Post by p-e-w »

dig1 wrote: post #93
p-e-w wrote: post #39

There is a very simple, end-of-discussion type argument why shipping Vim as the default editor is a terrible idea: Because its user interface differs significantly from how every other program on the system works. You can have all kinds of fruitful or fruitless debates about whether there is some deeper sense in which Vim is a "superior" editor, but there is no sensible reason for it to be the default, ever. Conventi…

If you look at how other (console) programs on the system work, Vi(m) is more consistent than Nano. ed, sed, awk, readline, even perl... knowing one of them, you know how to use vi. Likewise, know vi, you know how to use most of these tools (sans visual/modal editing abstraction). Also, it follows the Unix spirit of making small programs (in Vi(m) it can be seen as "a small number of key presses") and composing them…

The so-called "Unix spirit" is itself a rather hilarious mistake from the early days of software engineering, when programmers knew essentially nothing about human/computer interaction and foolishly believed that "efficiency" in a mathematical sense translates to efficient workflows.

It took many decades of trial and error to overcome this dogma, but today's productivity software all features a massive amount of functionality integration, not functionality separation. Email and calendars are often used together, that's why they belong in the same program. Similarly, it makes sense for a programmer's editor to have an integrated terminal, and for a web browser to have an integrated bookmark manager.

"Small programs" is a bad idea that happens to sound like a good one. We don't really need to debate this, as reality has settled that debate long ago. Software serves people, not ideals of rational optimality. And default software must serve the greatest possible number of people well, else it's the wrong default.

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#129

Post by p-e-w »

Aperocky wrote: post #114
p-e-w wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's straight up bad for linux adoption even if technically superior. I think the idea that Vim is "technically superior" should be challenged as well. I've watched, and participated in, dozens of discussions on text editors, and have never been shown a concrete piece of scientific evidence demonstrating Vim's claimed superiority according to any real-world metric. All we have are artificial comparisons where it ta…

Well there's no convincing you then. The pros of modal editing is well documented, and I'm not even arguing about the superiority of vim over the likes of emacs. People who believe using cursor to select, move, copy stuff are better than modal editing, even after all the argument, is probably not going to be swayed ever. As an almost pure vim user, I know how my own speed are significantly improved ever since I adopt…

> The pros of modal editing is well documented

Finally! Someone who knows where that elusive data is hidden that actually shows why modal editing is better.

Wait, did you forget to link to the study?

Re: GNU nano is my editor of choice (2021)

#130

Post by Aperocky »

samwillis wrote: post #12

I've never learnt Vim or Emacs, have always used Nano when editing via the terminal. However I increasingly find myself firing up a VSCode remote session if I need to edit more than a single line. Remote VSCode is kind of magic, I'm increasingly working in (local) VMs via it. I have one project that is probably never going to never going to support ARM, and I'm close to needing to upgrade my MacBook. I really want an…

I liked Atom before I jumped into vim.

I installed about 10 plugins that made my vim look almost exactly like Atom, except much faster, I also had a script that could install the exact plugins in any unix system in a few seconds, very useful since I work with VMs.

Best of both worlds, people often forgets/don't know that vim are actually more configurable than other editors - colors, layouts, you name it.

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