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Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

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Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#121
post #19

I produced a free ebook edition of Mutual Aid for Standard Ebooks last year: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/peter-kropotkin/mutual-aid It's very readable and quite interesting. It aimed to have a veneer of science, when the science of animals and nature was still fairly undeveloped; and it succeeded in a sense, because its observations are still held in regard, but I think it succeeded much better as a work of phi…

> In any case, it suffers a little for what I think is the naive thesis of "if only mankind could cooperate like the animals do, we would live in a utopia." Of course, mankind has demonstrated through thousands of years of history that tribes of men can't really cooperate in any grand sense, so the point seems rather moot.

In one paragraph you say that his biological observations are still held in high regard. (Nothwithstanding that the science of such things was farily “underdeveloped”, he protested… you know, like how people massively protest against Darwin’s theories, from about the same era?) Then you take a dump on those same observations in the next paragraph because people who have lived in class societies, under strict hierachies (that’s all of recorded history, yes) weren’t nice to each other? Well… why do you think anarchists proposed an alternative to that?

You know what is utopian? To build a society on such a flawed human nature as what we have, centred around our selfish shortcomings—basing socity on on subjugation, oppression, and exploitation, so that (predictably) the ones who are vile and strong will take as much for themselves as they can and exploit the rest—see history—and for us collectively to doom ourselves by ruining the planet by pillaging it of its resources and all kinds of ecological balance. That’s utopian!

But congrats on your ebook project. Your pathetic little gloss demonstrates how classic literature is often wasted like pearls before swine.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm not. Some of that wealth was created by externalizing costs in the form of pollution. Because that is how our society was designed and we did not have good alternatives until around the turn of the century. But most of it was not. Most was genuine wealth that improved many people's lives. The point of lifting people out of poverty - which doesn't mean they have now have money; it more means they have more acc…

There is a mountain of difference between: We did not have good alternatives, until we did; and We suppressed progress, had people killed, and squashed all attempts at public ownership of the goods, launched defamation campaigns, buried people in lawsuits, had them locked in their homes or jail for no reason other than being a block at corporate earnings. If you have to slave away your life to pay for access to educa…

I think you're on the wrong forum.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Kropotkin would agree with you rather than GP -- you are making arguments that would in fact be dear to Kropotkin. Check out his books for yourself if interested. His work on this subject was in large part a response to the influence of "darwinism" at the time, where it became commonplace to think that "evolution" meant that we were evolved to compete with each other viciously, that selfish competition was ou…

There would be no point in competing with someone who has the same genes as you since it is the genes that drive evolution. Going further, the more different the genes the more you would want to compete. So this means that you would cooperate most with your parents then your siblings, then your family, tribe, race and species.

I think the main thing missing from this simplistic analysis (which I would tie back to Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" and the gene-centric view of evolution it proposed) is that organisms don't need to just replicate themselves, but also their environments. I mean look at lichen. A small colony of organisms from completely different domains of life and they would die without each other yet that algae would obviously prefer to replicate the fungi it partners with over some other species of algae. Bison need to keep grasslands healthy, worms need to keep the soil organisms alive, mycorrhizal fungi need to keep plants alive, plant roots have a large toolbelt of chemical dances it does JUST to cultivate the specific soil bacteria they like, our gut bacteria have it in their interest to keep us humans thriving and interacting socially, myrmecophyte trees attract and support ant life, capitalism needs to replicate artificial scarcity, parasitic plants like dodders actually provide a whole host of benefits to its hosts like acting as an above-ground communication network, beavers practice "niche construction", most "weeds" occupy a specific niche where they grow in disturbed soils only to "work themselves out of a job" by conditioning the soil to better health allowing for ecological succession to take place (e.g. dandelions decompacting soil), and your dog would very likely kill another dog (extremely genetically similar as they are) in order to save your life.

In the 1990s a cholera outbreak in South America created an interesting natural experiment. In some countries it was a deadly disease that spread through waterways. But in places with better hygiene, it couldn't spread through those typical pathways. So it eventually evolved into a much milder form in order to allow people to go out and socialize so it can continue to spread

This is why every single deadly pandemic has been zoonotic in origin. The black plague, covid, hiv, etc all came from other animals. It's a matter of maladaption. All the diseases that have been closely associated with humans for thousands of years have instead evolved to... not kill us. Some of them even became an essential part of our microbiome. Even herpes, a rather ancient human "parasite", actually plays some beneficial roles in our immune system. The microbial universe is a prime example of how organisms need not only replicate themselves but also the environments in which they thrive

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#124
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big jump from "less human domination" to "destruction of the family" that you're making.

I'm talking about stuff like this, rhetoric that's common in anarchist communities: https://www.instagram.com/p/CmUY0cjKsIE/ Humans are hierarchical creatures. It's emergent behavior, not forced upon us.

I'm pretty active in anarchist (of the left-leaning variety) spaces and this is literally the first I've heard of family-abolitionism. That doesn't necessarily mean it ain't common, to be clear, but it does mean that this assertion that it is "common in anarchist communities" should probably be taken with a neighborhood-clearing and hydrostatically-equilibrious grain of salt.

At most, I've encountered calls to abolish the dependence on traditional family structures, in particular the assumption of a "nuclear family" baked into a lot of societal interactions. That doesn't mean abolishing families (nuclear or otherwise) themselves, but rather making it so that people who lack familial support systems (nuclear or otherwise) are not disadvantaged as a result of that lack.

Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you consider the ideological philosophy of anarchy as 'leftism terror', then you only serve to out yourself as having no idea of the tenets of anarchism itself. He is also not saying HN readers should lean that way, but having an intellectual and enlightened view on life, often means having read up on multiple ideologies, theories or philosophies. Which if the HN reader base would generally consider themselves wel…

> one of the most famous political and philosophical minds in history, Petr Kropotkin. That's rather a stretch. What's your threshold for "most famous"? Top ten? Top one hundred? Top thousand? Top ten thousand? If it's top ten, no way. If it's top ten thousand, yes, he's definitely in. Top thousand? Probably in. Top hundred? Probably out. But if your definition of "most famous" is "top thousand", I suspect that your…

I would ultimately say he is top one hundred (probably top 20 for me), but that's a personal opinion. If we look at the impact his ideas, beliefs and teachings had on the first half of the 20th century then he was a giant. Anarchism, and specifically how he taught it grabbed hold of much of the disparate political movements that occurred in that part of time. Anarchist movement's and mutual aid, take a grip in many parts of the third world even today.

Perhaps that's because I have taken note of these movements that I see him as one of the most famous, perhaps you see it differently which is fair. I see him as a contemporary to arguably the most famous political mind of all time, Karl Marx, and was regarded along similar lines for his impact.

Sure there are a range of people on the left and right of political ideological thought who could be considered famous, but not many who have produced what he has.

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