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No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

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Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#121

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

msla wrote: post #75
wernercd wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It sounds like thousands of Californians are experiencing unnecessary and extended end of life suffering." Why is that your take? Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? or some other take? We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair...

> Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? Because nobody's made that case. Making a case requires evidence. Not handwaving and appeals to movie plots. > We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair... As long as we're trading conspiracy theories, the person who reported that was paid off by the right…

The case is already out there. I read an article on cbc that was reporting some insane stuff around MAID, to the point of being scary: yes the government is trying to save money.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#122

Post by larksimian »

Gravityloss wrote: post #105
larksimian wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add that old people still vote, so the state or more exactly some political parties will still have a massive incentive to keep people alive as long as possible. Regardless of age, healthcare scandals are a huge political risk so governments will always overspend to avoid them. The comment you're responding to is like a singularity of wrong.

I was first thinking "private healthcare can fix this gap". But in Canada there's no private healthcare alternative. Here in Finland we have all the alternatives: public healthcare (municipal and government level), employment health care benefit, health insurance and then even private pay cash immediately healthcare. It's got some side effects. In a bizarre twist, the city of Espoo, which has about the highest GDP pe…

I think private options just cannibalize and parasitize public health services. I see it where I live in the UK and where I'm from in Romania.

In Romania it's just outright graft: public hospital doctors direct patients for cheap procedures to their private clinics and toss anything expensive back into the public system. The government pays for all treatments anyway, but public hospital budgets end up being harmed since 'profitable' treatments are being siphoned to the public sector(and doctors outright steal stuff from the public hospital).

In the UK it's a similar selection bias in what's treated privately leading to adverse selection effects for the public sector. Combined with consultant-cancer draining tons of money in order to figure out how to save money(hint: the money-saving solution is never firing the consultants). Society is getting older faster and the government is trying to cut costs on one of the cheapest healthcare systems in the OECD. Basically sabotage from the top down.

Similar effect happens with charter schools in the US, almost impossible to prevent adverse selection effects leading to increased problem-student concentration in the public schools.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#123

Post by FpUser »

mjjjjjjj wrote: post #118
FpUser wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"but I do have a problem with medical practitioners pushing it on people who want to live but can't get basic resources" Same here. This fucking abomination of a doctor should be screaming bloody hell and knocking on government doors to have them address the problem. Here we are: rich developed democratic country basically telling our poor to go fuck themselves and die.

Why aren’t you doing this exact thing?

And you know this how?

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#124

Post by dang »

willhslade wrote: post #120
dang wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suggest you do a little reading You're of course welcome to be on either side of this issue, but please edit swipes like that out of your comments here. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . (Your comment would be fine without that bit.)

Hi dang, Sorry about that. I meant it neutrally but that didn't come across. I won't post again anything that suggests snark. Thanks, Will

Appreciated!

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#125

Post by mistermann »

mmastrac wrote: post #40
mistermann wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My prediction is that this poor man is the leading edge of a massive tsunami that is heading towards Canadian shores. Housing/rent prices are beyond insane in Canada, we have 500k+ immigrants per year, and with food prices now on the rise 10% to 20% at least , I can't imagine how many people there are going to be who can't afford a roof over their heads. And I've seen zero sign that this is even on the radar of gover…

> I've seen zero sign that this is even on the radar of government Perhaps you're being hyperbolic, but respectfully, if you really haven't seen any sign it doesn't feel like you've been looking that hard. There have been numerous steps for addressing both housing and food prices, and neither of those can be solved overnight.

> There have been numerous steps for addressing both housing and food prices

Raising interest rates .000001% would technically qualify as "a step".

So would enacting policies that have technically more than zero effect, but also contain gigantic loopholes (purely accidental oversights, I'm sure) that facilitate avoiding the proclaimed spirit/intent of the policies.

Government is largely theatre, the manipulation of the perception of the public (producing "not to worry!" attitudes among the public if done well). Housing costs have been a MAJOR problem for WAY over a decade (as can be seen in various charts), substantial serious action could have been taken long ago before it was too late, now there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people (recent buyers) in financial positions that could cripple them permanently, in addition to the MANY millions who remain in the position of likely never being able to afford a home (in a traditional sense of the word, or recommended ratios), or will be permanently poor due to having to spend a historically anomalous percentage of their income to just cover rent and food.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#126

Post by joe_the_user »

tomrod wrote: post #39
joe_the_user wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say any state-facilitated euthanasia needs to be extremely carefully considered in situations where suicide is a recommended and facilitated option to avoid homelessness and related disasters. Of course, I'm also in favor of just not organizing benefits so that disabled people wind-up facing homelessness and so being willing to choose death.

We agree on both of these points.

And there's significant evidence on this thread that Canada isn't doing that serious consideration and that's a huge problem, a literal crime against humanity imo.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#127

Post by joe_the_user »

igorkraw wrote: post #96
37 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if I understand, but the article gives a number of examples, such as: > Mary knows that she could control her pain if she could take vitamin pills, eat a special diet, and go to physiotherapy. She can’t afford it. “Mary identifies poverty as the driver of her MAID request,” Gibb-Carsley writes on a slide accompanying her talk, emphasizing the. “She does not want to die, but she’s suffering terribly and she’s…

I'm wondering, does this example work as anti-euthanasia instead of pro-UBI to anyone reading it (or the rest of the article)? It seems excessively cruel to me to try and force people to live in misery big enough to make the want to kill themselves instead of alleviating the misery . Like, the article seems to frame the argument that MAID can be used to lobby for better welfare as a ridiculous idea, but that's really…

I'm wondering, does this example work as anti-euthanasia instead of pro-UBI to anyone reading it (or the rest of the article)?

This is a perverse sort of argument. I'm in favor of social services (UBI or otherwise) sufficient to prevent homelessness. There are a lot problematic things situations in this society. But these aren't going away tomorrow - in our world homeless will be with us for a while and you shouldn't add to the problem of homelessness the problem of social services making it easy to just end your life if you're threatened with homelessness.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#128

Post by x86x87 »

verall wrote: post #119
x86x87 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally never heard of someone who killed their pet to avoid the hassle of dealing with illness. I have heard of multiple people that kept the pet alive and kept pumping in more and more expensive treatments because they could not let go. Killing a pet that is practically family and has been part of your life for 10+ years is not something people do to avoid responsibility.

Because you're probably middle class. Talk to vets and you'll learn one of the worst parts of the job is euthanizing animals because people cannot afford or don't have the time to provide treatment for them.

I suspected as much. It must be heartbreaking to have to put your pet down because you cannot afford the treatment. Otoh, if you cannot afford the treatment should you get a pet in the 1st place? (Yes, i know that things are not created equal and probably I come at this from a privileged position)

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#129

Post by msla »

ImHereToVote wrote: post #99
wernercd wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've replayed a handful of stories that point to the fact that there are 10 thousand assisted suicides in Canada. Out of those thousands, if "assuming they're broadly correct" add up to a system that is not well thought out and is already having problems with "oh, you're poor and having a bad day? we can fix that!" And my original question still stands: Why is the interpretation "California is letting people suffer n…

I think you simply missed the point that neo-liberals can't believe the idea that professional neo-liberal politicians might have I'll intent.

Your thinking I'm a neoliberal invalidates your point.

You, however, are a statist who wants the government to mandate suffering.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#130

Post by msla »

wernercd wrote: post #82
msla wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why isn't it "Thousands of Canadians are being killed too soon in an effort to save the government money"? Because nobody's made that case. Making a case requires evidence. Not handwaving and appeals to movie plots. > We already have stories of Canada asking Veterans to join "MAID" instead of getting a wheelchair... As long as we're trading conspiracy theories, the person who reported that was paid off by the right…

"Nobody's made the case" Tons of people are making the case. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin... "Since then, things have only gotten worse. A woman in Ontario was forced into euthanasia because her housing benefits did not allow her to get better housing which didn’t aggravate her crippling allergies. Another disabled woman applied to die because she ‘simply cannot afford to keep on livin…

Why are you so absurdly adamant about people not being able to end suffering?

You dig up some bizarre stories created by people with agendas, and refuse to acknowledge that the right to life includes the right to choose how life ends, and to deny that is to deny the basic rights of humanity. You absolutely refuse to see that the government has no place to mandate suffering.

Why do you think the government should step in and demand people suffer? Why are you so pro-big-government?

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