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Chrome, 10 Years Later

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Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#121

Post by mysterydip »

xg15 wrote: post #34

> People seem to think it's the browser's job to block ads, but my perspective is that if a business owner wants to make their business repulsive, the only sensible response is to stop using the business. Somehow once technology is involved to abstract what's happening, people start talking about how it's their right to unilaterally renegotiate the transaction. Or for another analogy that will likely make you upset:…

Remember when popup windows were a thing? Originally a feature for pages to show alerts or confirmations, naively implemented when the web was a less hostile place. Then sites started abusing them for their own gain, and browsers started shipping popup blockers as a feature.

Sites that are "well behaved" with ads are fine to me. The problem is too many abuse the css/js capabilities of the browser to make a result similar to the popup problems of yore. The only sane solution from a consumer point of view is block by default and whitelist the good places.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#122

Post by ufmace »

izacus wrote: post #81
poszlem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that part of the blog post is probably the best example of: “it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

This obviously goes both ways - some people also utterly refuse to understand just how many businesses exist because of the revenue driven from ads. Which then results in some comments here that are utterly detached from reality. It's kinda tiring really - seeing people constantly bark past each other with no understanding of nuance. But that's the modern internet I guess.

I understand both sides, but it feels like the ad world has been in a race to the bottom for a long time. I wouldn't really mind a few simple static banner ads here and there. But it seems like every site with ads has stuck dozens of them everywhere with video and animation, and sometimes semi-malicious scripts too.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#123

Post by josefx »

roenxi wrote: post #50
tppiotrowski wrote: post #14

> History will surely uncover a Machiavellian plot about usurping control over the web, but at the time the story was pretty simple, at least as it was explained to naive pawns like me. Google wanted the web to succeed and even had a team of people contributing to Firefox. Google wanted more influence over the product, Mozilla was (reasonably) uncomfortable with that, so we went our own way. This resonates with me. O…

People are trying to anthropomorphise companies and that isn't a sensible way to understand them. The list of people who have your interests at heart: * You (some caveats). * Maybe your family (lots of caveats). As Stallman has been pointing out since the early 1990s, if you give up your freedom you won't be free any more, and other people can do stuff you don't like to you. People still refuse to use that logic desp…

Let me get this straight, you cite Stallman on freedom and then claim that Google hasn't done anything wrong? Google the company that manages the webs most widely used DRM module? You are aware that Stallman and GNU explicitly oppose digital restrictions management in the context of freedom?

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#124

Post by ideamotor »

erfgh wrote: post #102
rakoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote also perpetuates the free market myth: every actor is on an equal foot, has infinite amounts of time and energy to consider options, the alternatives exist and/or are essentially free to build, and money is not a problem. That's never been true. Somehow, there is no environment, no society at large, no inequality. I understand how someone living in the richest country working for the richest company could f…

That's not what a free market is. A free market is merely one that is not regulated by the state. Stop perpetuating this strawman please.

Both of you need to stop throwing around “free market” as an argument point since you both evidently have no clue what it means.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#125

Post by nske »

jbirer wrote: post #98

I will always support Chrome over Firefox because they are not politicizing their project, they just serve you and leave the politics to politicians. They earned their market dominance for being great and supporting things that Firefox did not at the time. I am OK with monopolies of good products, I don't really care about using an inferior product for the sake of lack of monopolies.

I think they mostly earned their market dominance by aggressive marketing -i.e. pestering the search engine users to install Chrome, or bundling it with most Android devices. I feel that any browser that was good enough (and Firefox was) could have gained the dominant position on the market if they had the same promotion platform.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#126

Post by loudmax »

erfgh wrote: post #102
rakoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote also perpetuates the free market myth: every actor is on an equal foot, has infinite amounts of time and energy to consider options, the alternatives exist and/or are essentially free to build, and money is not a problem. That's never been true. Somehow, there is no environment, no society at large, no inequality. I understand how someone living in the richest country working for the richest company could f…

That's not what a free market is. A free market is merely one that is not regulated by the state. Stop perpetuating this strawman please.

This is true in just the same way that a free society would have no have no government at all. No taxes, no laws, no police or judiciary, just complete freedom to do whatever you want to your neighbors.

Ayn Rand's utopia. I wouldn't want to live there.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#127

Post by savingsPossible »

haspok wrote: post #63
SalimoS wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, it absolutely is following your reasoning it's your media player job to skip the uninteresting part of a video you're watching ? no, the browser job is to display what he receive from the resource YOU requested what the server put in that resource is between you and it (you can "cheat"(not my word but liked/steal it from another comment) by drop the ad or choose to not requesting the resource all together).

The proper analogy would be that the media player would play random extra videos in addition to what you are watching, in overlays or even opening new windows. Can you imagine VLC working like that? In-video ads are usually OK, the way they do "sponsor" segments on Youtube for example, they are "uninteresting" but usually short and non-obtrusive. Again, I consider these as transactions and don't skip them if otherwis…

> The best creators (Jay Foreman comes to mind) do these so well that I actually look forward to watching them!

Nice. I see this pattern around: when X wants Y to (say) watch an ad, X's first instinct is to try to force Y. When X does not get to do that, they tend to discover much less coercive ways to do it

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#128

Post by password4321 »

izacus wrote: post #40
password4321 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to speak for Apple why Safari is where it is. Pro: battery life Con: lagging behind on some features

The fact that lack of Safari features drives people through taxed AppStore is just an accidental Apple side effect right? ;) Google is utterly evil for driving people towards web Ads for profit, while Apple drives people into their 30% tax AppStore by pure altruistic battery concerns?

I tried to avoid speculating.

I believe we agree: control is a strong ulterior motive with both pros (prioritizing privacy; Flash is dead) and cons (native app required for important functionality).

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#129

Post by nonameiguess »

erfgh wrote: post #102
rakoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote also perpetuates the free market myth: every actor is on an equal foot, has infinite amounts of time and energy to consider options, the alternatives exist and/or are essentially free to build, and money is not a problem. That's never been true. Somehow, there is no environment, no society at large, no inequality. I understand how someone living in the richest country working for the richest company could f…

That's not what a free market is. A free market is merely one that is not regulated by the state. Stop perpetuating this strawman please.

It seems clear to me that was is meant is a perfectly competitive market, because according to basic welfare economics, that is the set of conditions under which a free market will lead to socially optimal outcomes. Aside from very hardcore non-aggression principle absolutists and sheer nihilists who are just rich and don't give a shit if the rest of society suffers, that tends to be the argument for why a society should be more capitalistic and have liberal markets. The further we get from those conditions, the less the argument holds.

And, of course, welfare economics itself is just a mathematical model. Whether it really holds true empirically is hard to tell given the impossibility of society-wide RCTs and enormous confounders when trying to compare across time and space.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#130

Post by isleyaardvark »

xg15 wrote: post #34

> People seem to think it's the browser's job to block ads, but my perspective is that if a business owner wants to make their business repulsive, the only sensible response is to stop using the business. Somehow once technology is involved to abstract what's happening, people start talking about how it's their right to unilaterally renegotiate the transaction. Or for another analogy that will likely make you upset:…

> What if every business owner decided to make their business repulsive

It’s not even a “what if”, we all experience it on a daily basis.

https://how-i-experience-web-today.com/

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