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Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

cuimc.columbia.edu

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Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#121

Post by LoganDark »

jrussino wrote: post #18
ldh0011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a tangentially related note, it confuses me why so many people seem to think that the only reason to do away with fossil fuels as much as possible is climate change. Millions die prematurely from air pollution every year. Even if climate change was fake we should still be trying to use cleaner energy.

"What if it's a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_if_it%27s_a_big_hoax_an...

That is my new favorite quote.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#122

Post by themitigating »

rayiner wrote: post #67
jrussino wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What if it's a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_if_it%27s_a_big_hoax_an...

This assumes there is no cost to the change.

The real question is if the cost to change is less than the current or future costs of inaction. I find what you said a manipulate style of argument used frequently today.

"What about lithium mines" ignoring the various oil disasters and the effects of drilling

"What if the vaccine had a 2% chance of killing me" ignoring the probability of dying from covid (made up numbers here)

I'm not claiming which side is right but these are often framed as the choice between the cost of the change and no cost.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#123

Post by legulere »

jodrellblank wrote: post #96
ldh0011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a tangentially related note, it confuses me why so many people seem to think that the only reason to do away with fossil fuels as much as possible is climate change. Millions die prematurely from air pollution every year. Even if climate change was fake we should still be trying to use cleaner energy.

There was a reply to this comment, now deleted, which said " Should have cars add something to exhaust so humans can see/smell it--even if just for demo purposes. Might help people to understand. " And I wanted to reply to that to say that we did used to be able to see exhaust fumes, and things were added so that we can't see them. I have often thought that "the school run" would be different if everyone could see th…

> Especially including the radiation in the emissions from coal burning power plants, which kills more people every year than any nuclear power plant accident.

I once did the maths, Chernobyl was on the order of 100 times Chinas current yearly nuclear emissions caused by coal burning.

Particulate matter and nitrogen oxides are the real issue (and sulphur dioxide where it’s not filtered out yet).

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#124

Post by legulere »

WalterBright wrote: post #48
newsclues wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a bike riding hippie in the age of video meetings and streaming, explain to me why the world elite need to fly all over the world in private jets to discuss climate change? Can you tell me why my grocery store stopped giving out free plastic bags by charging for them, and now phasing them out for paper, but they still sell plastic garbage bags and I can't reuse the grocery store bag for my garbage bag now? Can you…

Because the government uses ban hammers instead of simply taxing the amount of pollution emitted.

Taxes have a bigger effect on the poor, while pollution is caused overwhelmingly by the rich.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#125

Post by KingMob »

ancientworldnow wrote: post #94
macNchz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC air quality is quite good, especially considering the density. I agree in principle re society's addiction to cars and I'd love if there were fewer in NYC, but, interestingly, the subway system actually has orders of magnitude worse air than street level: https://www.curbed.com/2021/02/mta-subway-air-quality-pollut... .

The awful subway air is an even better reason to wear a mask on the transit system than disease.

Maybe, but the subway itself is entirely electric. I think the air on underground platforms gets stale and muggy, but I'm not sure it's actually more dangerous than being above-ground with the cars and trucks.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#126

Post by myshpa »

Aeolun wrote: post #112
brnt wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely with the point here, but why are you buying drippy nasty stuff?

I was talking about leftover foodstuffs :)

That's exactly the stuff that doesn't belong in the landfill, compost it.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#127

Post by maeil »

rgmerk wrote: post #87
WalterBright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost incentives work. It's why people buy cars that get more mpg. Why wouldn't they prefer to buy a car that engenders a lower pollution tax?

If by “people” you mean “Americans”, they buy F-150s to go to the grocery store, and they vote out governments that threaten their ability to do so. Taxing pollution, particularly consumer-facing taxes, has a long history of political failure, whereas subsidising clean technology has a long history of political and technical success.

It doesn't simply "have a long history of political failure"; it has a history of political failure in certain areas of the United States. In much of the rest of the developed world, e.g. nearly all of Western-Europe, it has a history of success and taxing cars based on fuel consumption and emissions has indeed caused buyers to gravitate towards more fuel-efficient cars.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#128

Post by WalterBright »

rgmerk wrote: post #87
WalterBright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost incentives work. It's why people buy cars that get more mpg. Why wouldn't they prefer to buy a car that engenders a lower pollution tax?

If by “people” you mean “Americans”, they buy F-150s to go to the grocery store, and they vote out governments that threaten their ability to do so. Taxing pollution, particularly consumer-facing taxes, has a long history of political failure, whereas subsidising clean technology has a long history of political and technical success.

If we can have a sales tax, we can have pollution taxes.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#129

Post by WalterBright »

legulere wrote: post #124
WalterBright wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government uses ban hammers instead of simply taxing the amount of pollution emitted.

Taxes have a bigger effect on the poor, while pollution is caused overwhelmingly by the rich.

> pollution is caused overwhelmingly by the rich

Then they'll be the ones overwhelmingly paying the pollution taxes.

Re: Decades of air pollution undermine the immune system

#130

Post by WalterBright »

maeil wrote: post #127
rgmerk wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by “people” you mean “Americans”, they buy F-150s to go to the grocery store, and they vote out governments that threaten their ability to do so. Taxing pollution, particularly consumer-facing taxes, has a long history of political failure, whereas subsidising clean technology has a long history of political and technical success.

It doesn't simply "have a long history of political failure"; it has a history of political failure in certain areas of the United States. In much of the rest of the developed world, e.g. nearly all of Western-Europe, it has a history of success and taxing cars based on fuel consumption and emissions has indeed caused buyers to gravitate towards more fuel-efficient cars.

Do they tax the rate of emissions, or the amount emitted? It's important to tax the latter.
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