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Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

federalreserve.gov

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Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#121

"I am once again asking for" a common sense explanation for how increasing interest rates will reduce the prices of retail food and gas. (This should be the new Deleuze meme.)

They're not trying to reduce existing prices per se. They're trying to reduce the extent of price increases going forward. The Fed can do that be damaging demand by damaging the labor market and reducing the value of assets (which also damages spending power ultimately in numerous ways). There should be a lot more consideration given to increasing and improving on the production side right now, however the US is not…

> They're trying to reduce the extent of price increases going forward.

What is the common sense explanation for how increasing interest rates reduce the extend of price increases of food and gas?

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my try: - Unlike popular perception, money is not created by "printing it". Money is created, or the supply of money is added to, when entities (corporations, institutions, people) borrow money from a bank. - When interest rates go up, the cost of borrowing goes up because you have to pay back more over time. - When the cost of borrowing goes up people borrow less. - When their is less borrowing their is less…

> ... borrowing... borrowed... Borrowed money is rarely spent on food and gas. You can be stupid and talk about buying food and gas on credit cards. Very few people in this country will stop buying food and gas to prevent default. People need food and gas to survive. So it's not really the borrowed money that is spent on food and gas.

Oh, but people will stop buying so much food and gas, just not directly. Without enough money, some people will cancel their planned trip to Hawaii. That's a lot of gas not burning right there. Or they won't buy another TV, which needs gas to be delivered to your home. With less people competing for precious gas, its prices drop.

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More expensive credit to businesses leads to less investment and growth leading to less hiring leading to higher unemployment. Higher unemployment means some people won't be able to afford food and gas lowering the demand for food and gas. That's the theory anyway, they don't say it in plain terms like that though.

> Higher unemployment means some people won't be able to afford food and gas lowering the demand for food and gas. People need food and gas to survive. They're not going to stop buying food and gas, unless they are dead.

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Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduce demand, broadly, as credit tightens with increased interest rates. Can't borrow at basically free money rates across the board anylonger. Translates into, Less money for stock buybacks, less Yolo with stimy checks, left over money to yolo is also reduced == the market returns to mean. People feel less wealthy == slow purchases. Reduced purchases == Business struggle. Businesses lay people off == less demand. A…

That's not quite right, because if you only reduce demand you could also reduce supply and prices would be unchanged. Higher interest rates reduces money supply (which can induce a recession) but does not necessarily reduce the supply of goods. Less money chasing the same amount of goods (ideally) causes lower prices. I don't think you are wrong intuitively. I am just trying to be a little more specific because get v…

> but does not necessarily reduce the supply of goods

Every mainstream economist agrees that rising interest rates increases unemployment.

Well you need human beings to go and make stuff like food and gas. That stuff is also already made as efficiently as possible. So supply is definitely, also, going to be reduced.

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't reduce the prices. It will merely reduce the rate of increase of those prices.

Well, I don't see a common sense explanation as to why the rate of increase should decrease either. We could also say, "Eventually, the rate of increase will go down anyway, in the absence of any action from the fed."

I don't understand the entire system either, but one obvious effect is that there will be much less cash-out refinancing or flipping, which means at least that source of cash and the associated demand will get smaller. And judging how many people I know around town who have been treating their houses like ATMs, it's not a small effect.

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#126
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By sucking the money out of the system. It reduces demand - in the modern world the prices are disconnected from cost of production - instead reflect the demand for that product - how much can it be sold for

> By sucking the money out of the system. Does it suck money out of the system? Here's a common sense example: Raising interest rates caused assets like stocks and bonds to decline in price. People sell these equities and now have cash they are willing to spend on more shit, specifically what is in the CPI. So the opposite can also happen.

No it doesn't suck money out, but it reduces the rate at which new money is created through borrowing.

Every time a loan is agreed, the value of the ${NATIONAL_CURRENCY} is diluted by a tiny amount. And that tiny dilution is amplified through the economy and has a proportionally larger effect on the price of end-user items which inflate to compensate.

Increasing interest rates is not a lever that directly affects things measured by the CPI, but the idea is that the effects will ripple through the economy and reduce the delta-v of their prices at the end of a very complicated series of gears and pulleys.

It's a bit like trying to refloat a grounded ship by subtly nudging the Moon's orbit to modify the tides.

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my try: - Unlike popular perception, money is not created by "printing it". Money is created, or the supply of money is added to, when entities (corporations, institutions, people) borrow money from a bank. - When interest rates go up, the cost of borrowing goes up because you have to pay back more over time. - When the cost of borrowing goes up people borrow less. - When their is less borrowing their is less…

> ... borrowing... borrowed... Borrowed money is rarely spent on food and gas. You can be stupid and talk about buying food and gas on credit cards. Very few people in this country will stop buying food and gas to prevent default. People need food and gas to survive. So it's not really the borrowed money that is spent on food and gas.

Money circulates between people. Person A takes out a loan and pays person B to do some work. Person B buys food and gas with the money.

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... borrowing... borrowed... Borrowed money is rarely spent on food and gas. You can be stupid and talk about buying food and gas on credit cards. Very few people in this country will stop buying food and gas to prevent default. People need food and gas to survive. So it's not really the borrowed money that is spent on food and gas.

Oh, but people will stop buying so much food and gas, just not directly. Without enough money, some people will cancel their planned trip to Hawaii. That's a lot of gas not burning right there. Or they won't buy another TV, which needs gas to be delivered to your home. With less people competing for precious gas, its prices drop.

> Without enough money, some people will cancel their planned trip to Hawaii.

By this logic, why doesn't Congress illegalize travel? Is that going to reduce the cost of travel? Will that reduce CPI, which measures prices, not demand?

> Or they won't buy another TV,

What if we illegalized buying TVs? Would that make TV prices fall? You think that is going to reduce CPI?

I'm not saying your explanation here is stupid. It is the first one in a while that seems to at least appeal to common sense. I am just trying to show that CPI measures prices, it does not measure demand or supply alone for goods.

> With less people competing for precious gas, its prices drop.

Gas prices rise and fall all the time. Lots of factors go into its price. You could illegalize gas, would this cause the price of gas to rise or fall?

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... borrowing... borrowed... Borrowed money is rarely spent on food and gas. You can be stupid and talk about buying food and gas on credit cards. Very few people in this country will stop buying food and gas to prevent default. People need food and gas to survive. So it's not really the borrowed money that is spent on food and gas.

Money circulates between people. Person A takes out a loan and pays person B to do some work. Person B buys food and gas with the money.

Person A stops paying person B.

Is person B going to stop buying food and gas?

Re: Fed increases target rate to 3.75-4.00%

#130

"I am once again asking for" a common sense explanation for how increasing interest rates will reduce the prices of retail food and gas. (This should be the new Deleuze meme.)

They're increasing the cost of borrowing, which directly affects the cost of loan financing for something like a car or a house.

But probably more importantly the increased cost of borrowing hits businesses which are living on the edge and have been rolling over short term loans at low interest rates. When that debt service triples then those unprofitable businesses will start facing negative cash flow losses and can be pushed into insolvency.

For just one example, look at all the commercial real estate vacancies in downtown SF and Portland. Behind a lot of that will be very cheap financing which will go under when interest rates rise (and it is all reasonably short-term financing because it had to be in order to get the lowest interest rates and keep the businesses barely treading water -- so think of this as ARM mortgages for business).

So you have reduced demand for anything funded by loans, along with businesses at the margins going under because their cost of borrowing increases. You get layoffs from the businesses going under which will remove demand for goods. The reduced demands for goods then filters through the system producing more layoffs and more reduced demands for goods across every sector and the economy contracts into a recession.

All the Fed does is raise the cost of borrowing money which causes enough businesses on the edge of failure to fail that it pushes the economy into a recession--amplified by all the positive feedback loops in the economy.

Honestly don't know why this is such a mystery to everyone or why the question needs to be a "meme", it is pretty straightforwards. The only tricky part might be understanding why failures of businesses on the margins could lead to an economic collapse, but you'd think that with the audience of engineering-oriented people here that we'd collectively understand positive feedback loops amplifying small changes into big ones.

Oh there's also purely subjective psychological positive feedback loops as well. Layoffs at FAANGs right now (or whatever they're called these days) is more due to forward expectations and those businesses getting a bit more runway for the recession. But by doing that they're helping to create the very recession that they're getting prepared for. Similarly in the middle of a recession businesses cut jobs and curb spending because they're in a recession, making the recession worse.

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