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Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

konichivalue.com

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Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#121

Post by rippercushions »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #109
pezezin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just Tokyo, but the whole of Japan. I live in Aomori, I have traveled quite a bit around the country, and I haven't seen yet a single city that wasn't extremely ugly. I have asked many Japanese people, and they just don't care.

Can you post examples of this ugliness? I’ve never been to Japan and am curious. I had never heard of this.

Pick a random spot in any suburb of Tokyo in Google Maps Street View and start exploring. Here's one:

亀戸中央通り商店街 https://maps.app.goo.gl/9yY4Ncb5oM3hXqLY6

It's not particularly hideous by Tokyo (or world) standards, it's just exactly what was described earlier, a random mishmash of houses and shops in various states of repair.

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#122

Post by wst_ »

bluepizza wrote: post #13
rippercushions wrote: post #3

The article makes a major mistake: it uses Tokyo Metropolis (Tokyo-to, basically "Tokyo State", area 2,194.07 km2) for comparisons, not central Tokyo (23-ku, aka the former Tokyo City, area 619 km2). So it's basically the same as saying houses in New York are much larger than those in Paris, because you're comparing all of New York State including housing in Buffalo etc with the 20 arrondissements of central Paris. >…

Aren’t the backstreets of the less central ku filled with houses? I mean Setagaya, Ota, Edogawa, Adachi, Suginami, etc. I used to pick stations at random to arrive at and explore, and what I always saw was endless houses. Only the areas closer to bigger stations had manshon. I think you might be conflating Shibuya/Roppongi/Shinjuku with less central parts of the 23 special wards.

Those are huge wards by themselves. There are plenty of busy as well as residential places. For example, Setagaya-ku - stations like Sangenjaya, Jiyugaoka or Futakotamagawa are far cry from the quiet residential areas. There's a lot of any kind of housing there - bigger, smaller, houses and mansions alike.

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#123

Post by [deleted] »

wst_ wrote: post #118
franciscop wrote: post #35

The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience, looking at numbers it seems "Tokyo" means "Tokyo Metropolis", which includes the countryside, mountains, etc. So it's not really comparing the city. If we look at the numbers for Tokyo 23 wards[1] (what would traditionally be called "the city"), we can see they are virtually half than those from Paris or London: 16.5-19.7sqm/person is the range that fall…

I'm sure you've researched this and sure some apartments in Tokyo are small. I'd like to touch upon the big-house comment, though. It may be that your Japanese friends say that simply because it is polite, and very common, thing to say when you visit someone's house for the first time.

[deleted]

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#124

Post by [deleted] »

amrocha wrote: post #120
franciscop wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never mentioned anything about prices though :) 550sqft (52sqm) for a single person is unheard of here. Look at the article I shared, unfortunately it cuts off at 30sqm, meaning ALL the houses of 30sqm or more make up 22% of the total. Assuming a normal distribution that peaks around 20sqm/person, you should've lived in the top 1-2% of Tokyo. I feel like Paris' 20 Arrondissements is too small, comparable to Zone 1…

C'mon mate you can't be for real, you can't just look at Airbnb data and make any conclusions about rent from that. They literally target different audiences.

[deleted]

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#125

Post by logicalmonster »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #116
mrep wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDP can grow with a stable population if your Real gross domestic product per capita is growing which it has been for the USA [0]. Japans has barely grown for the past 30 years which is their big problem [1]. [0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA [1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYGDPPCAPKDJPN

What do you think the cause is for the differences? I strongly feel that a lot of that latter “strength” for the USA chart after 2009 was made up of money printing. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL https://inflationchart.com/gdp-in-m3 I guess we will see if USA can continue up only. I have my doubts. Fertility rate needs to be 2.1 to remain stable and we dipped below 2.0 around 2010 and are at 1.64 now (Japan…

> The previous US administration clown show also drastically cut immigration.

What if restricting immigration for a time is what is needed to start to stabilize the birth rate which ultimately takes care of the economy?

Many Americans aren't focusing on making babies because they're hopeless about their future and ever having a home so they put off thinking about having a family until as late as possible. What if a more modest amount of immigration (lowering demand for housing) helps put home ownership and hope for the future into more peoples' reach? A little reduction in real-estate prices might piss off some boomers who have a lot of wealth locked into their home, but these aren't the people who are going to be reproducing.

Cause and effect are sometimes related in unexpected ways, but this chain of thinking about this problem seems entirely simple and rational.

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#126

Post by flanbiscuit »

SECProto wrote: post #99
franciscop wrote: post #35

The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience, looking at numbers it seems "Tokyo" means "Tokyo Metropolis", which includes the countryside, mountains, etc. So it's not really comparing the city. If we look at the numbers for Tokyo 23 wards[1] (what would traditionally be called "the city"), we can see they are virtually half than those from Paris or London: 16.5-19.7sqm/person is the range that fall…

> The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience I have friend living in Tokyo paying Regarding size, I was far more comfortable living in a ~550sqft 1LDK in Japan than I ever was in 800sqft-1000sqft apartments in North America - everything is geared to living in tighter quarters (from furniture to fridge to food packaging) making it much more convenient than trying to fit a full size couch into a sma…

10万円 = 100,000 yen, which is about:

USD 675.18

EURO 683.40

GBP 588.43

For anyone who is interested but too lazy to search

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#127

Post by franciscop »

Konichivalue wrote: post #111
SECProto wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The housing space metrics seem very far off from my experience I have friend living in Tokyo paying Regarding size, I was far more comfortable living in a ~550sqft 1LDK in Japan than I ever was in 800sqft-1000sqft apartments in North America - everything is geared to living in tighter quarters (from furniture to fridge to food packaging) making it much more convenient than trying to fit a full size couch into a sma…

Yes, the numbers are a bit skewed by the fact that more people live alone in Tokyo than Paris or NYC, but it's definitely true that you get more square meters per $ in Tokyo. Also, it is true that people on Tokyo on average earn less than NYC, London and Paris, but they also spend a smaller percentage of their total income on housing, so housing is cheaper in PPP terms too. I'll dig out the exact numbers tomorrow if…

Do you know numbers about how much housing is sponsored by the companies in Japan? Maybe that's what is making the difference since it's not counted neither as salary, nor as the price of the house? I know some large companies sponsor partially or totally the housing of thousands of their employees, again skewing prices greatly.

For example if Tanaka's salary is $500 lower because the company is partially paying for their place, that means on paper his salary is lower, the price of the place is MUCH lower, and the ratio of housing/salary is also lower, than if he received those $500 and then used it to pay for the house.

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#128

Post by dcolkitt »

ajmurmann wrote: post #115
dcolkitt wrote: post #74

Should also be noted that Tokyo is one of the few major metropolises in the world where the price of housing has not meaningfully increased in real terms since 2000[1]. The Japanese constitution drastically limits zoning, building and land use restrictions. As a result the city of Tokyo builds more new housing than all of California or England.[2] (And no, this isn't because of Japan's demographics. While Japan as a…

Good point. One small issues: I think your first sentence is missing a negative or you want to change "increased" to "decreased"

Thanks!

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#129

Post by Danieru »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #83
dcolkitt wrote: post #74

Should also be noted that Tokyo is one of the few major metropolises in the world where the price of housing has not meaningfully increased in real terms since 2000[1]. The Japanese constitution drastically limits zoning, building and land use restrictions. As a result the city of Tokyo builds more new housing than all of California or England.[2] (And no, this isn't because of Japan's demographics. While Japan as a…

Even though everyone wants to live in Tokyo, the same is true for hit real estate markets in other countries that it is being compared to. We aren’t comparing Tokyo to Duluth. Lack of building codes like must have central heat or must have bathroom also can bring housing prices down.

Tokyo's building codes do require bathrooms. Plus minimum sunshine for a room to count as a bedroom, along with shutters on all windows.

What caught my eye about your comment is central heating. Japan in fact penalizes central heating. Not just not requiring it but going so far as to increase property taxes slightly.

In Japan's case it is a desire to reduce energy intensity in a country dependent on energy imports.

Re: Housing in Tokyo is cheaper and more spacious than people think

#130

Post by F35Machinist »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #83
dcolkitt wrote: post #74

Should also be noted that Tokyo is one of the few major metropolises in the world where the price of housing has not meaningfully increased in real terms since 2000[1]. The Japanese constitution drastically limits zoning, building and land use restrictions. As a result the city of Tokyo builds more new housing than all of California or England.[2] (And no, this isn't because of Japan's demographics. While Japan as a…

Even though everyone wants to live in Tokyo, the same is true for hit real estate markets in other countries that it is being compared to. We aren’t comparing Tokyo to Duluth. Lack of building codes like must have central heat or must have bathroom also can bring housing prices down.

Do you actually think the comment you replied to was complaining about requirements like central heat or bathrooms? NIMBYs will trot out every excuse and misdirection to avoid addressing the dire shortage of housing. This anti-growth mindset is a philosophy of death. I suspect that deep down, many want the world to end with them and are actually sabotaging efforts to solve societal issues out of some sort of Freudian death-drive.
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