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Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

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Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#121

Post by Sporktacular »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #108
Sporktacular wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The wifi system is EMC certified and tested with the flight instrumentation. Dozens of different consumer devices are not. 2) Lufthansa "allows it during the entire flight without restriction – even during take-off and landing unless the crew instruct otherwise"( https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphone... ). In other words, unless you're told to turn it off in the event of some problem, which…

Their wifi system might be, but a 100 phones and tablets, some from reputable manufacturers, some from "10TB tablet apple samsung iphone" sellers from aliexpress, and the system still works. Imagine planes falling down because a single passenger had a malfunctioning phone on it... the lawsuits against boeing/airbus would be astronomical.

Not sure what about my comment you take to be an endorsement of opaque, seemingly unreasonable EMC rules. I don't make them, know if they work or particularly care for the purpose of this thread. The concerns stated, justified or otherwise, were about RF emissions and not battery fires.

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#122

Post by layer8 »

Jack5500 wrote: post #7

Except they have. A Lufthansa spokesperson has clarified the new rules for the German news site watson: https://www.watson.de/leben/urlaub%20&%20freizeit/879935671-... It rougly translate to: The device itself is not banned, but has to be shut off during flight. In practice this would mean that you would have to remove the battery from the airtag, since there is no powerswitch. But I will admit that this seems odd an…

There are no new rules. Lufthansa is merely citing the ICAO regulations that have been in effect since 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33128614

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#123

Post by TheRealPomax »

happyopossum wrote: post #119
tsimionescu wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand there is nothing new. Lithium batteries have always been allowed in checked luggage only if they are inside a completely powered off and reasonably protected device, to avoid the risk of fires. This risk doesn't really apply to such small batteries, but the rules are there regardless of the size of the battery.

AirTags don’t use lithium ion batteries.

You may want to tell Apple that, because they explicitly call out that they use lithium batteries over in https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT211670

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#124

Post by layer8 »

Youden wrote: post #52

My reading is that AirTags are permitted by IATA regulations. [0] indicates that a small Lithium-metal battery, as is installed in an AirTag, can be transported as cargo on a passenger aircraft. [1] indicates that low-powered communications like Bluetooth are permitted from active devices transported as cargo (page 9, item 3). Am I missing something? [0]: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/05e6d8742b0047259bf3a700b..…

For electronic devices containing lithium batteries, the ICAO regulations mandate that “if devices are carried in checked baggage:

— measures must be taken to prevent unintentional activation and to protect the devices from damage; and

— the devices must be completely switched off (not in sleep or hibernation mode);”

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33128614

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#126

Post by filmgirlcw »

Delta has had RFID on all baggage tags for nearly a decade, meaning you can track your bag in the app to make sure it got on the plane and even when it has been delivered to baggage claim. It’s something that probably adds pennies to their costs and makes for a much better baggage situation. I love AirTags and agree that it will be impossible for Lufthansa to enforce this on any level, but it’s striking that more airlines haven’t just adopted this sort of solution themselves.

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#127

Post by Sporktacular »

zahllos wrote: post #118
Sporktacular wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The wifi system is EMC certified and tested with the flight instrumentation. Dozens of different consumer devices are not. 2) Lufthansa "allows it during the entire flight without restriction – even during take-off and landing unless the crew instruct otherwise"( https://bluetoothtechworld.com/can-i-use-bluetooth-headphone... ). In other words, unless you're told to turn it off in the event of some problem, which…

I suspect the difference is more about the spectrum in use. Airtags can be found and interact via Ultra-Wideband (UWB), which essentially means low power broadcast across 3.1GHz up to 10GHz approx. This includes some spectrum used for GNSS. One is probably fine but a hold full of them and people's iPhones emitting on UWB also? By contrast Bluetooth, WiFi etc use the ISM radio bands, which can simply be avoided by any…

UWB, which is pretty new, would be a really good explaination of why they single out these trackers specifically. Without some solid test results to clear them, it's understandable why airlines might be nervous.

Would just add that it's more what the aircraft needs to reliably receive (not transmit) that is susceptible to local sources of spurious RF.

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#128

Post by balozi »

Intentionally or unintentionally the waters have been effectively muddied and few people can come to any sensible conclusion on this issue. The general public will walk away with the simple message that AirTags are a safety risk and thus are banned from all aircraft. Apple marketing should consider jumping on this.

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#129

Post by Telemakhos »

monksy wrote: post #71
Jack5500 wrote: post #7

Except they have. A Lufthansa spokesperson has clarified the new rules for the German news site watson: https://www.watson.de/leben/urlaub%20&%20freizeit/879935671-... It rougly translate to: The device itself is not banned, but has to be shut off during flight. In practice this would mean that you would have to remove the battery from the airtag, since there is no powerswitch. But I will admit that this seems odd an…

It's only an odd statement because their employees created this shit storm and the organization is trying save face with the employees and correct the statement. Don't expect for the service side of LH to turn their back on rejecting baggage because it has an airtag.

Yeah, this article generated a lot of technical discussion about the chemical composition of batteries and the technicalities of RF and IATA regs, because this is a site for the technically minded—but the real story here is about corporate communication.

Re: Lufthansa has not banned AirTags

#130

Post by libria »

happyopossum wrote: post #119
tsimionescu wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand there is nothing new. Lithium batteries have always been allowed in checked luggage only if they are inside a completely powered off and reasonably protected device, to avoid the risk of fires. This risk doesn't really apply to such small batteries, but the rules are there regardless of the size of the battery.

AirTags don’t use lithium ion batteries.

You 2 are talking around each other. You're probably both right about 2 different technologies.

Lithium ions are rechargeable batteries; lithium primaries are non rechargeable, high performance batteries.

Apple air tags use lithium primaries, but I suspect airlines do not care and both kinds are banned (from loaded-in-device-in-baggage flight).

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