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Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

reuters.com

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Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#121

Post by 988747 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #86
tremon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia makes the energy crisis by turning off the gas Yes, but this way Putin can plausibly deny that it was a policy decision. Same with novichok poisonings: everyone knows Putin's pulling the strings, nobody can prove he did.

WHy would putin deny that? He said he'll do that more than once: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/putin-blames-germany... Putin wants the pipelines open, because europe knows that the minute they sit down and reach a deal with russia, the valves get open, europe gets the gas. Now europe is fucked, and even if local people protest due to cold, sitting down with putin won't bring back enough gas, so there is les…

Those things do not take long to fix. In fact that's exactly what Putin needs right now: an excuse to stop the gas flow for a few weeks, until the pipeline is repaired. Then of course there will be some time until they test it, and then some bureaucrat in Moscow needs to sign off the certification and allow resuming pumping - which allows Putin to drag this out for as long as he needs.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#122

Post by fabian2k »

sprash wrote: post #97
RandomLensman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn't anywhere close to something like a median voter wanting to get the gas flowing from Russia again in Germany - now or in the winter. A government giving in to the more fringy hard right/hard left asking for that would not survive. The German-Russian relationship has been damaged for decades to come now.

I strongly disagree. People in Germany couldn't care less about Ukraine because it is far away. Most assume that Putin will win this war anyways. However, they care strongly about cheap Gas because it directly influences their lives.

70% of Germans favor continuing support for Ukraine even if that causes high energy prices (https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/politbarometer-union-...). This value is practically unchanged for months.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#123

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

orwin wrote: post #33

I think the Russian explanation is simple enough and don't believe we have to put tinfoil hat for this. We knew that this would be the result of sanctions on western tech and knowledge. I've met and talked a lot with a Russian/Khazak "oil engineer" (asylum seeker, hosted by my mom) and to be honest, his knowledge in thermodynamics was abyssimal and wouldn't qualify for "system dynamics 201" (loose translation, sorry)…

Do you really think that incompetence or neglect caused three separate pipelines to fail on the same day?

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#124

Post by LeanderK »

sprash wrote: post #97
RandomLensman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn't anywhere close to something like a median voter wanting to get the gas flowing from Russia again in Germany - now or in the winter. A government giving in to the more fringy hard right/hard left asking for that would not survive. The German-Russian relationship has been damaged for decades to come now.

I strongly disagree. People in Germany couldn't care less about Ukraine because it is far away. Most assume that Putin will win this war anyways. However, they care strongly about cheap Gas because it directly influences their lives.

> it is far away

It is not far away. There's Germany, then Poland and then war. We have refugees here and feel the impact on our day to day life.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#125

Post by sudden_dystopia »

jeltz wrote: post #110
eunos wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German can't make a deal with Putin anymore since the leverage is gone

But there have been zero indications that Germany is interested in any such deal. Germany is fine with buying gas from Russia for euros, but they have displayed zero interest in offering anything else in payment. If Germany made such a deal I see mass protests and lets of criticism from the rest of the EU which would lose them tons of political clout within Europe. And for what? I do not think it would be worth it fo…

Wait until it gets cold and peoples resolves actually get tested. Those protests would turn into people begging to turn the gas on. If you don’t live in a place that actually has winter, you just won’t understand. I lived all summer without a/c, it was fine with the occasional cold shower. But no heat is absolutely miserable and deadly in a real winter.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#126

Post by Sakos »

aa-jv wrote: post #76
Sakos wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is the truth a trigger-word? Wtf? They started a war. It's not "triggering" to state the facts.

The question is, why clamour for more dramatic language when its quite clear that the words used adequately communicate the situation, in the first place? Your outrage won't make the world a more peaceful place - those who skillfully use language to de-escalate, do however. If only that skill were more widespread, we might actually have diplomatic solutions to this problem...

It's not outrage to point out that it's a war. It's not dramatic to state what it is, that it's a war. And if you think there's a diplomatic solution here possible only through "softer" language, then you haven't been paying attention for the past 30 years, or even just in the past year. We didn't fuck this up. Putin did. He wanted to start a war and he did. It had nothing to do with language used.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#127

Post by eunos »

jeltz wrote: post #110
eunos wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German can't make a deal with Putin anymore since the leverage is gone

But there have been zero indications that Germany is interested in any such deal. Germany is fine with buying gas from Russia for euros, but they have displayed zero interest in offering anything else in payment. If Germany made such a deal I see mass protests and lets of criticism from the rest of the EU which would lose them tons of political clout within Europe. And for what? I do not think it would be worth it fo…

>for what?

To sustain industry.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#128

Post by ajsnigrutin »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #112
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, russia controls "the valve", so it doesn't need to destroy the pipelines, and the minute EU (well, mostly germany) decides to negiotiate, putin can open the valve. With this, even if they negotiate, there won't be any gas soon. So, it's bad for russia, bad for eu, and the only one being better of is USA... who was threathened to do exactly this more than once. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662

cool. lets see the world now decide how they will play it, i mean here is prior deliberations and intent and we saw today the action itself so if USA is behind this which they most probably are, how will EU for example respond to this aggression? I hope the same response viz a viz sanctions, trade barriers, this and that.????

I mean.. if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe.

Realistically.. even if they found an american submarine with "pipecutters" still connected to the pipeline, they'd say they'll do everything in their power(!!!)... and then send an angry letter to USA and replace an ambassador or two somewhere.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#129

Post by aa-jv »

Sakos wrote: post #126
aa-jv wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, why clamour for more dramatic language when its quite clear that the words used adequately communicate the situation, in the first place? Your outrage won't make the world a more peaceful place - those who skillfully use language to de-escalate, do however. If only that skill were more widespread, we might actually have diplomatic solutions to this problem...

It's not outrage to point out that it's a war. It's not dramatic to state what it is, that it's a war. And if you think there's a diplomatic solution here possible only through "softer" language, then you haven't been paying attention for the past 30 years, or even just in the past year. We didn't fuck this up. Putin did. He wanted to start a war and he did. It had nothing to do with language used.

Why do you want to use more violent language about this war than is necessary? Whats your intention behind tone-policing people to be more violent in their language when discussing Russia's aggression?

Nobody said it wasn't a war. The whole world knows its a war. The only ones clamouring to make it more of a war, are the ones who stand to profit from yet more, endless war. Is that your intent? If so, consider this: we've had 30 years of this kind of rhetoric, from both sides.

We, who do not profit from this war in any way, would benefit from better language being used - by everyone.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#130

Post by pseudo0 »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #47
988747 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin, because he gets an excuse to cut Germany off of Russian gas. It's game of chicken now: the West sends weapons to help Ukrainian army chase off all the Russian invaders, and Putin tries to make energy crisis in EU so severe that Europe is forced to negotiate with him, and accept Russian conquest of parts of the Ukraine. Whoever can stay on their course longer wins.

> Russian conquest of parts of the Ukraine. I encourage you to drop the definite article "the" when referring to Ukraine. https://theconversation.com/its-ukraine-not-the-ukraine-here...

What's more interesting about that article is the threat of social shaming at the end:

> Like it or not, and intentionally or not, the language a person uses reflects their political positions, including their position on Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.

As a citizen of the United States, this whole issue seems ridiculous. It's remarkable though how a media and PR campaign, combined with social pressure, can change our lexicon practically overnight.

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