We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity • Hacker News Board

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#121

Post by calessian » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:09 AM UTC

bradleybuda wrote: post #101

spartanatreyu wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most expensive part of GPU operation (power-wise) isn't computation, it's actually moving information around. Moving the GPU further away from the CPU and storage is going to lead to worse latency and power requirements. Over the next 10-15 years, we'll probably see CPU+GPU packages become mainstream instead of CPU (with basic integrated graphics) and a separate GPU.

But home PC users / high end GPU buyers (rightly or wrongly) are fanatical about modularity. The server market will likely (has already?) shifted.

I’m inclined to say that’s more due to integrated gpus not being a good replacement if you need CUDA or play games; If a better combined alternative existed (and not at an outrageous price) I don’t see the majority skipping it die to lack of being modular.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#122

Post by zapdrive » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:11 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #70

dragontamer wrote: post #7

1. While I agree we're beginning to reach absurd proportions, lets really analyze the situation and think about it. 2. Are there any GPUs that actually have performed physical damage on a motherboard slot? 3. GPUs are already 2-wide by default, and some are 3-wide. 4-wide GPUs will have more support from the chassis. This seems like the simpler solution, especially since most people rarely have a 2nd add in card at a…

My proposal isn’t too different. Move the one ultra-fast PCIe slot to the top of the motherboard. It would be mounted so the GPU plugs in parallel to the motherboard, on the same plane, above the motherboard on a tower case. The few other PCIe slots that exist can stay at the bottom. Only downside is the case has to be taller. Not sure if that would be considered a problem or not. This doesn’t really help dual GPU se…

On a further note, why does it even have to be inside the case? Make a slit in the case on the top, so that the PCIe slot is sticking out. Stick a GPU in that slot, supported by the case. The GPUs these days look much cooler anyways.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#123

Post by sidewndr46 » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

ikiris wrote: post #19

superchroma wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RE 2: We were shipping a system with a 980ti and it ripped the PCIE slot off the board despite being propped with foam.

... maybe don't ship a built system then? Those boxes get dropped

Dropped? The UPS guy regularly throws stuff from the curb and I hear it bounce off my front door then land on the front porch.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#124

Post by hakfoo » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

This is (much less of a) problem on a flat layout, like what used to be called a "desktop" case, instead of the conventional tower. Then the weight of the card is just pushing straight down in the direction the card already wants to be oriented.

I'm using a pretty heavy modern GPU (ASRock OC Formula 6900XT) in a Cooler Master HAF XB with that layout, and sagging and torquing is not much of a concern. The worst part is just fitting it in, since there's like 2mm between the front plate and the board-- you have to remove the fans so you can angle the card enough to fit.

I also suspect that if we went to the 80's style "a full length card is XXX millimetres long, and we'll provide little rails at the far end of the case to capture the far end of a card that length" design, it would help too, but that would be hard to ensure with today's exotic heatsink designs and power plug clearances.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#125

Post by test6554 » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #65

eigenspace wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Are there any GPUs that actually have performed physical damage on a motherboard slot? I have a MSI RTX 3070 2 fan model. It hasn't damaged my PCI-E slot (I think), but it's weight and sag causes some bending that now makes it so that my fan bearing makes a loud noise if spun up high. My solution has been to turn my PC case so the motherboard is parallel to the ground and the GPU sticks straight up, eliminating…

Yeah, I do that for a long time. Had a few accidents where I panicked until it turned out the card was just sagging and the PCIe connection was being stopped. After it happened the 3rd time I just cleaned up a little space and put the PC lying on its side. Zero problems since then.

No post body was provided.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#126

Post by wmf » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

intrasight wrote: post #109

It's the IBM PC legacy. The won and we've lived with that form-factor now for 40 years. A new PC looks very much like that of 1982. Back in '82 when I started in robotics tech, we mostly used VME. A super-robust interconnect platform. There is no "motherboard" with VME and similar bus architectures. There is a backplane. Why can't we have the benefits of a physical platform like VME but with the electrical form-facto…

A backplane and a bunch of additional connectors add cost that the PC market doesn't want to pay.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#127

Post by MrFoof » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

I made this GIF to illustrate the point of how large these new high-end NVIDIA Lovelace consumer GPUs are: https://i.imgur.com/327INxU.gif

This is the ASUS RTX 4090 ROG STRIX. Air cooled, no waterblock. That is a mini-ITX form factor motherboard, hence why it looks so comically large by comparison.

This is one of the physically smallest 4090s launching. Its confirmed weight is 2325g, or 5 ⅛ lbs. Just the card, not the card in its packaging.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#128

Post by topspin » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #70

dragontamer wrote: post #7

1. While I agree we're beginning to reach absurd proportions, lets really analyze the situation and think about it. 2. Are there any GPUs that actually have performed physical damage on a motherboard slot? 3. GPUs are already 2-wide by default, and some are 3-wide. 4-wide GPUs will have more support from the chassis. This seems like the simpler solution, especially since most people rarely have a 2nd add in card at a…

My proposal isn’t too different. Move the one ultra-fast PCIe slot to the top of the motherboard. It would be mounted so the GPU plugs in parallel to the motherboard, on the same plane, above the motherboard on a tower case. The few other PCIe slots that exist can stay at the bottom. Only downside is the case has to be taller. Not sure if that would be considered a problem or not. This doesn’t really help dual GPU se…

> Only downside is the case has to be taller

Not necessarily. A flexible interconnect would allow the GPU to be planar with the MB; just bend it 180 degrees. Now your GPU and CPU can have coolers with good airflow instead of the farcical CPU (125mm+ tall heatsinks...) and GPU cooling designs (three fans blowing into the PCB and exhausting through little holes...) prevailing today.

My idea is to separate the whole CPU complex (the CPU and heatsink, RAM slots, VR, etc.) from everything else and use short, flexible interconnects to attach GPUs, NVMe and backplane slots to the CPU PCB, arranged in whatever scheme you wish.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#129

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:28 AM UTC

ikiris wrote: post #19

superchroma wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RE 2: We were shipping a system with a 980ti and it ripped the PCIE slot off the board despite being propped with foam.

... maybe don't ship a built system then? Those boxes get dropped

That's what internal screws and external padding are supposed to be able to compensate for.

Re: We Need New Motherboards Before GPUs Collapse Under Their Own Gravity

#130

Post by bigmattystyles » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

Can you have a cable extended pcie socket or would that introduce too much latency? You could argue we just need a new form factor. And if I can put the mobo parallel to the GPUs, problem kinda solved. Or just go back to the desktop form factor like someone else said, remove torque from the socket.