Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#121

Post by asabjorn » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 8:58 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #104

asabjorn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marxism actually is a theology and by proxy wokeness as well, so it is not surprising you get religious zealots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqj-MKG9SnU&t=1s

I wish more people in the tech spoke up against DIE. Corporations are acting as a proxy of Government policies that do not pass the muster of legislative process. It is seems like either 1) Everyone is brainwashed by the woke religion or 2) People know it is malicious but don't have the courage to speak up. Of all the people, I would expect technologists to have a very straight forward, rational and objectivist persp…

It's the ESG framework that force companies to adopt DIE, kill it and you kill DIE. The marxists are using the large pension funds they manage (blackrock, vanguard, state and federal pension funds etc) to force companies to either seek a high ESG score or see these funds money used as leverage to tank their stock. This is actually illegal, as it's both racketeering and corporations&funds are required to seek profit.

Every wondered how oil, coal and weapons companies could have a high ESG score? It's because it's a scam to benefit the cartels controlling the scores.

In practice ESG stands for sustainability of the political regime (Environmental), compliance with marxist values and social justice programs (Social) and compliance with the desired principles of the ruling government (Government). DIE is part of the S and G.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#122

Post by streptomycin » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:18 PM UTC

juve1996 wrote: post #115

streptomycin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers I cited before were total $ per pupil from all sources.

The numbers you cited also have a citation that leads to a 404 and are only for 1 year, in one specific state. Hard to draw any reasonable conclusion from that.

NJ has been doing it for decades, the Wikipedia article gives a pretty good overview. There's similar programs in other states, and many examples of poor/bad schools that get tons of funding. Such as basically every major city in the country.

Possibly entire states and nearly every city for decades is not enough time, success may be right around the corner!

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#123

Post by TMWNN » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:18 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #44

_yb2s wrote: post #30

As a US academic at a prestigious institution, I find it surprising how few of my close colleagues and collaborators are US born- a very small percentage (maybe 10-20%?). In some sense it makes sense that if our institutions are best, the globally best researchers would all come here. If it were a true meritocracy, I guess we would expect ~4-5% of US academics to be US born, given that it's our percentage of the worl…

I don't think even the most Pollyanna-ish perspective claims that there's a global meritocracy. The smashing success of merit-based immigrants in high-income countries is a pretty undeniable signal that we're nowhere near the point where the marginal legal immigrant is less "meritorious" than the pop avg. I'm personally willing to bite the whole bullet and am an open-borders advocate. But it's a mistake to think that…

>I'm personally willing to bite the whole bullet and am an open-borders advocate. But it's a mistake to think that supporters of border restrictions aren't aware that they're explicitly anti-meritocratic.

I'm an immigrant to the US. I support tight border restrictions because the current status quo regarding the Mexican border, visa overstays, and emphasis on family reunification makes it harder for the US to have a truly meritocratic system, which would be something akin to the points-based systems of Canada and Australia.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#124

Post by TMWNN » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

silvestrov wrote: post #34

abadger9 wrote: post #28

I've wished at least 2 dozen times over the last decade that the nordics had better research universities. I spent a portion of my life in Finland and the quality of life is so much better there, I would say it's probably unattainable here (the reduced crime, the affordability of everything, lack of homelessness, a more well educated population, etc.). Unfortunately the research being done at the top universities the…

Problem in Denmark is that every small town wants their own university. You can't have 5 research universities in a country of 5 million people.

Having one major one would be a good achievement for a country of 5 million.

In the US, Wisconsin, Colorado, Minnesota, South Carolina, and Alabama are the states with populations in the 5-million range. The University of Wisconsin, Colorado, and Minnesota are all AAU members, and each would comfortably be the finest university in every country on earth smaller than, say, Spain (40 million people). South Carolina and Alabama aren't as prestigious but both do quite credible jobs of serving as the flagship universities of their states.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#125

Post by streptomycin » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

juve1996 wrote: post #116

streptomycin wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be interesting to see how far things can go before people stop making these arguments. It's the same argument people made 20 years ago. Yet spending keeps going up without results. Check back in another 20, I predict "equity" will be as far away as today but a lot more money will be spent and the public discourse will be the same. Also, there are different regions and schools where different ways of spending mo…

Investment clearly works across all facets of our economy. It could work, in schools, too. But our society will never allow for what it really takes to adequately use the funding given to it. It's not surprising students did better as they were younger. Poor districts expose children to bad outcomes earlier leading to poor performance in school, obviously during the teenage years.

I don't think it's clear that every problem can be solved by spending more money on it. In this case, if the root cause of the problem is outside the school, then the school may not be able to do much about it even given infinite funding.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#126

Post by anon291 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #118

anon291 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meritocracy actually is about how students or private employees are chosen, since the word is typically used to apply to the entire society of the USA, not just its government. So yeah, if all schools were suddenly uber-Catholic and dissuaded non-Catholics for example, then that would mean the society has become less meritocratic. Or if companies had racial preferences in hiring instead of hiring based on merit and a…

Good points. Also, constitutional constraints apply to public schools and universities so they are not supposed to push a state religion such as marxist theology. It is also illegal to fire someone or discriminate against them for not adopting a faith. Right now the job is to make more aware that marxism and by proxy wokism doesn't just look like a religion, it is a religion and has a clear theology, so constitutiona…

Right. Constitutional protections are the bare minimum for government to follow. There exist configurations of current society with all constitutional protections in place that still leave a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, modern political discourse is obsessed with government and less obsessed with polities, which is really sad, because government is actually a small part of society.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#127

Post by anon291 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

f154hfds wrote: post #110

anon291 wrote: post #98

I'll say something few will mention... but lack of a safety net is a large factor in why the US has the best research universities, and well -- the best everything [1] Simply put the fact that you can slip to a pretty low bottom in the US (as opposed to the guaranteed safety net in some other countries) motivates those individuals capable of high achievement to produce the best research. This is why the US has basica…

I don't know why no one disagreeing with you will engage. Human ingenuity is forged in fire. You don't build muscle without discomfort. You can't have children without sacrifice. I personally don't think the lack of a welfare state is a huge factor in American universities (I tend to think immigration is a much bigger factor), partially because the US has a huge safety net and every year it grows [1]. Philosophically…

> I don't know why no one disagreeing with you will engage.

It's a common problem on HN; very used to it at this point.

I do agree that immigration plays a part as well, but immigration is also driven by pre-existing differences. The US must have done something that made so many migrants want to study here over other countries, and I think this is because American universities have been good for a very long time.

EDIT: Sorry you're being downvoted too. What a strange world.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#128

Post by TMWNN » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #27

tnel77 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m told that we don’t spend anything on education so this must be false.

The US chronically underfunds pre-college education. Universities are typically flush with money coming from grants usually from the government but also rich people. Often a large fraction of the grant money a professor obtains is siphoned off to dean's lush funds which help support education, hiring top professors, etc.

>The US chronically underfunds pre-college education.

As streptomycin said, you are wrong.

New York City spends more per student than anywhere else in the US (https://www.silive.com/news/2019/06/how-much-does-new-york-c...>). Baltimore, an incredibly poor and run-down city, spends the third most. #4-6 and #8 are all wealthy suburbs of Washington DC, but their schools are all far better than those of Baltimore or NYC on average, despite Baltimore spending slightly more per student and NYC spending 60-70% more.

Money can only do so much against dysfunctional families immersed in dysfunctional ethno-societal groups.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#129

Post by asabjorn » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 9:55 PM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #126

asabjorn wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. Also, constitutional constraints apply to public schools and universities so they are not supposed to push a state religion such as marxist theology. It is also illegal to fire someone or discriminate against them for not adopting a faith. Right now the job is to make more aware that marxism and by proxy wokism doesn't just look like a religion, it is a religion and has a clear theology, so constitutiona…

Right. Constitutional protections are the bare minimum for government to follow. There exist configurations of current society with all constitutional protections in place that still leave a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, modern political discourse is obsessed with government and less obsessed with polities, which is really sad, because government is actually a small part of society.

Absolutely. Marxism is an odd cult that slipped past a lot of protections that should have applied to it.

Persons from any faith that worships the state becoming a manifestation of its perfect idol and does the work (praxis) to make it so, should not be allowed any role in it as they would not adhere to the separation of church&state.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#130

Post by juve1996 » Thu, Aug 25, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

streptomycin wrote: post #125

juve1996 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment clearly works across all facets of our economy. It could work, in schools, too. But our society will never allow for what it really takes to adequately use the funding given to it. It's not surprising students did better as they were younger. Poor districts expose children to bad outcomes earlier leading to poor performance in school, obviously during the teenage years.

I don't think it's clear that every problem can be solved by spending more money on it. In this case, if the root cause of the problem is outside the school, then the school may not be able to do much about it even given infinite funding.

There's obviously a threshold - some amount of expenditure is needed. You need a certain amount of capital.

Obviously we're past that point at many places, and not enough in others. But if the underlying issue is poverty outside the classroom, I don't see how lack of money isn't the cause.