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Mainnet Merge Announcement

blog.ethereum.org

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Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#121

Post by olalonde »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #10

Is it incorrect to say that ethereum is now entirely centralized with some extra steps? Like, you have this proof of stake thing, but the only reason it works is because there's just a small number of validators, which is just going to be the ethereum foundation and friends. edit: putting this at the top because nobody is responding on topic. I am NOT talking about the class of people who stake 32 eth to validate nod…

Yes, it's incorrect to say that. Decentralisation is a spectrum and those extra steps are there for a reason. In terms of decentralisation, Ethereum probably sits somewhere between Bitcoin and Paypal.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#122

Post by spywaregorilla »

tsujp wrote: post #119
spywaregorilla wrote: post #10

Is it incorrect to say that ethereum is now entirely centralized with some extra steps? Like, you have this proof of stake thing, but the only reason it works is because there's just a small number of validators, which is just going to be the ethereum foundation and friends. edit: putting this at the top because nobody is responding on topic. I am NOT talking about the class of people who stake 32 eth to validate nod…

there's just a small number of validators, which is just going to be the ethereum foundation and friends. There are over 415 000 validators. See: https://beaconcha.in/

Read the edit. Slashers. Not validators.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#123

Post by jsheard »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #105
jsheard wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's determined by the majority of validators. There's two ways this can go - either the majority of validators enforce OFAC sanctions, effectively giving OFAC authority over the entire Ethereum network since validators who go against it will be slashed, or the majority of validators don't enforce sanctions, in which case validators with any presence in the US must put themselves in legal jeopardy to avoid getting sl…

So if I acquire 51% of validation power, and you catch me cheating, the person who gets to decide if I get punished is me?

Technically yes, but I think the idea is that it would be incredibly expensive and unproductive to pull off such an attack. You'd first have to acquire billions of dollars worth of Ethereum, and then launching that attack would torpedo any trust in the network and send the value of Ethereum to zero, lighting your billions of dollars on fire. The theory is that it's too expensive to realistically do for the lulz or out of spite, and it wouldn't make economic sense to do it for profit.

As for how that theory will interact with reality, who knows.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#124

Post by [deleted] »

redox99 wrote: post #108
potatototoo99 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is correct. It was already much more centralized than for instance bitcoin, due to the difficulty in having a validator node, but now it is just managed by the big holders and that's that. Furthermore, they will censor transactions according to US laws at least, and if you try to validate and not censor, you will get your staked coins taken from you by the protocol (as opposed to PoW, where you just fail to g…

You are spreading false information. Besides the "centralization" thing that was already replied, the part of > and if you try to validate and not censor, you will get your staked coins taken from you by the protocol (as opposed to PoW, where you just fail to get your block in the chain) Is outright false. It is the same as PoW. You choose what transactions you include in your block. So some people may choose to not…

[deleted]

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#125

Post by bhaak »

xur17 wrote: post #59
Anunayj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should however be noted that Ethereum had a ICO [1] on launch, where you could buy ethereum for a particular price. 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders". (it could however be more [2]) Today it accounts for something like 59% (72m) of total supply (~120m). Make what you will of that. 1. https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/initial-coin-offering-exp... 2. https://medium.com/@hasufly/ethereum-pres…

> 9.9% percentage of that also was set aside for "founders" > Today it accounts for something like 59% of total supply. Make what you will of that. Can you help me understand what exactly this means? Ethereum's supply has grown since the presale, so if anything the 9.9% should have gotten smaller since then.

OP has provided the right links but either misunderstood the text or phrased it very confusingly.

https://messari.io/asset/ethereum/profile/launch-and-initial...

Ethereum's crowdsale supply was 72 million ETH. Of that 60 million were sold for BTC in the crowdsale. 6 million was given to the Ethereum Foundation and 6 million to early contributors (overall 20% of what was sold was created as a pre-mine).

Now Ethereum's supply is ~122 million, so the miners produced 50 millions new ETH.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#126

Post by spaceman_2020 »

swamp40 wrote: post #113

My suspicion is that Ethereum got so popular because there were so many ways to make money from it. Basically a cash cow for developers and miners. Does anyone know where the money making opportunities will shift to with POS? Block builders? Validators? I suspect the amount of money to be made through MEV will dramatically decrease.

The money making opportunities will be in waiting for the next bullrun, then just forking the biggest ongoing trend onto a new and upcoming chain.

You don't have to create anything of lasting value. Just time the market and you can make wild money without doing any real work.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#127

Post by exo762 »

dmichulke wrote: post #79
tylersmith wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Stakers don't make the rules any more than miners make Bitcoin rules.

The rules who to include in the block. Imagine 51% of validators exclude people who use Tornado cash (as an example of addresses that somehow relate to a smart contract) The rest has to agree otherwise their stake is slashed. This can't happen in bitcoin. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In scenario when 51% coalition is censoring everyone else (block producers / validators that don't belong to coalition), the way out is via UASF - user-activated soft fork. This will cause slashing of attackers via "inactivity leak mechanism".

Source: https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#128

Post by joosters »

programmarchy wrote: post #98
zyphr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't stake 1 eth yourself. You need to at least 32 eth. Plus you need to make an investment to run your own a validator.

There are staking pools, just like there were mining pools.

If you join a staking pool, then by definition you are increasing the centralization of the network.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#129

Post by api »

I have to say I'm very surprised, and I'm curious to see how this plays out. PoW must die, but I have a hard time seeing how this won't lock up a ton of currency and create its own plutocracy.

Of course I suppose an argument could be made that a "least privilege plutocracy" with aligned interests is not as bad as many alternatives.

Re: Mainnet Merge Announcement

#130

Post by Rebelgecko »

exo762 wrote: post #62
shudza wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you don't need mining equipment to validate transactions on bitcoin, nor do you need to own it. With ETH, you need to own 32 ETH, obviously.

There is a confusion in language used. Bitcoin has two types of actors: block consumers and block producers. Ethereum has three types of actors: block consumers, validators and block producers. Thing often described as "full node" does just that - it consumes blocks, checking if blocks are valid. Ethereum validators are different, they not only consume blocks, they also attest their correctness for the rest of the ne…

Who validates the validators? The other validators?
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