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Modern Malaise

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Re: Modern Malaise

#121

Post by agumonkey »

Balgair wrote: post #107
ggm wrote: post #22

Hard not to see parallels with the end of the Roman empire. We know we could do better, we can't be bothered trying very hard and we'd rather moan about the good old days. All it needs is the more motivated (not very) barbarian hoarde to decide they'll do the social reconstruction we won't. Edit: I actually place great faith on coming generations. The kids are alright.

Oh gosh. If anything, we're entering a golden age. Yeah, climate change is going to be a real pain. But nothing really more than that on a civilization scale. Global poverty is at an all time low, hunger has never been lower, overall health is the best it's ever been, education is going great globally, we've never been more equitable between the genders, our access to clean water is the highest ever, etc. And all the…

I don't know how people reconciliate metrics like all time poverty low with the article linked.

Re: Modern Malaise

#122

Post by agumonkey »

I keep thinking about these topics. The constant rants, the food waste, the bs jobs.. I see a few ideas but it seems i'm too radical (I believe people enjoy heavy activities as long as they're rewarding intrisically and socially)

Re: Modern Malaise

#123

Post by md2020 »

> But our society has conditioned us to believe that consumption and status are the only things that provide happiness: the smartest children of our generation are going to Stanford and MIT to join Goldman Sachs, McKinsey and FAANG

I take slight issue with this framing. Why is there an implicit assumption that these really smart kids end up working at these places because they’re deluded that money and status are all that provide happiness? I’m sure there are lots of people on HN that work at these places/know lots of people that work at these places, and I’m willing to bet that a significant portion choose to work there because it’s intellectually stimulating for them. Sure, you can argue that too much value accumulates to these jobs for reasons outside of their control, but I think the assumption that that’s why they’re doing it is wrong.

This also ties in with the article’s mention of the general public resentment towards tech, see how widely used the derisive term “techbro” is used in online discussions. There’s this perception that everybody in tech is only in it for the money, and they enjoy using their smarts to exploit everybody else. I’ve been hit with this from people I know personally, and it’s insulting.

Re: Modern Malaise

#124

Post by d0liver »

cercatrova wrote: post #108
d0liver wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with income inequality is that the people at the top are actively stealing money from everyone else. Elon isn't out there building rockets. He just gets the rockets that other people made automatically and for free. This is the case with literally every billionaire. So, yeah, I'm envious. I'd like my stuff back.

That's only the case if you are a believer of socialism/communism, ie the labor theory of value. If not, then if one were a capitalist, they would say that systematically derisking the idea of reusable rockets is where Musk gets his billions from. If his workers are content with their compensation then that is what they agreed to.

If you gave his workers a choice between splitting the company equally with Elon and letting him have all or most of it, they would all choose to have the benefits of ownership. You can't say that someone "agreed" to something if they took the only available path.

Re: Modern Malaise

#125

Post by archhn »

seibelj wrote: post #102
archhn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You feel well connected through your family. That's all people really need. As you say, your children are your world. Some people don't have this family structure. Many come from broken homes with no good role models to look up to. They mimic their parent's maladaptive behaviors and end up in bad relationships. The degenerative cycle repeats. Many of these broken homes were the result of economic devastation or cultu…

It’s one thing to be raised in such a way that you have no knowledge or example of how to live a productive, healthy life. It’s another to actively reject traditional structures like hard work and family. There is a sizable cohort of online-types that actually thinks society would be better if the government ran everything, work was outlawed, rich people went to jail, and all manner of extremely insane ideas that the…

It's the best of times and the worst of times. Some are taking joyrides to space. Others are struggling to keep a roof over their heads. The inequality is real and tremendous. You may blame people for their lack of work ethic, etc, but there are many reasons for nihilism among the lower classes. Especially the industrial proletariat who has seen industry shipped overseas and suffered a dramatic decline in their quality of life. Many places that were once bustling with hard working Americans now look like warzones, or even worse: post-apocalyptic wastelands, replete with drugged out zombies. Generations of hard working Americans had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The myth of hard work = success and good life have been empirically proven to be false by their own experience. The same may be said of the American farmer who has been slowly strangled to death by big agriculture. Some of the hardest working people in this country have ended up with less than nothing--drowning in debt because larger economic forces sought to crush them.

I understand that from your position, things are great. But not everyone is living under the same material conditions as you. Desperate people, who feel crushed by the system, call for extreme measures--like complete government control a la communism.

Ultimately, you have a vested interest in maintaining your worldview because it secures your serenity. Unfortunately, this unwillingness to address the grievances of others and to ignore the material reality that proves that this is not the best of times for many people, will set you up to be blindsided by the furious subterranean forces building up under the guilded surface of this country.

Re: Modern Malaise

#126

Post by cercatrova »

d0liver wrote: post #124
cercatrova wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only the case if you are a believer of socialism/communism, ie the labor theory of value. If not, then if one were a capitalist, they would say that systematically derisking the idea of reusable rockets is where Musk gets his billions from. If his workers are content with their compensation then that is what they agreed to.

If you gave his workers a choice between splitting the company equally with Elon and letting him have all or most of it, they would all choose to have the benefits of ownership. You can't say that someone "agreed" to something if they took the only available path.

That's post facto. What about when someone is first starting a company that could fail at any time, would workers have equally put money in and taken the risk of ownership too? People only want the rewards once they see how rich someone's company was but not when they might have to potentially lose their money if they had to invest their time and money in the beginning.

Re: Modern Malaise

#127

Post by seydor »

carapace wrote: post #120
seydor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define 'comfortable'. It's always relative as people aspire to be what others have become. Wars have always happened, naturally, so it's nothing 'unnatural', and perhaps nature's way to flatten the curve. Our current feelings about war may or may not be correct - wars have many benefits too.

You've never been to war, eh? > Define 'comfortable'. Hot and cold running water, a toilet, shower, electricity and internet, shelter, medical care (not dying of easily curable diseases, for example.) Really, IMO, the baseline is what folks at the Google campus have. If everyone in the world had that QoL as a baseline I think we could declare victory and go home.

the soviet union provided this level of 'comfortable', decent basics for literally everyone . somehow its people didn't 'declare victory and went home'

Re: Modern Malaise

#128

Post by seibelj »

archhn wrote: post #125
seibelj wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s one thing to be raised in such a way that you have no knowledge or example of how to live a productive, healthy life. It’s another to actively reject traditional structures like hard work and family. There is a sizable cohort of online-types that actually thinks society would be better if the government ran everything, work was outlawed, rich people went to jail, and all manner of extremely insane ideas that the…

It's the best of times and the worst of times. Some are taking joyrides to space. Others are struggling to keep a roof over their heads. The inequality is real and tremendous. You may blame people for their lack of work ethic, etc, but there are many reasons for nihilism among the lower classes. Especially the industrial proletariat who has seen industry shipped overseas and suffered a dramatic decline in their quali…

Things were way, way worse in the past. The US fought a civil war. The cities were systematically looted and burned in the 1960s and all manner of figures were assassinated. It is far, far from that today.

It is far easier today than ever to get material support with food stamps, section 8 housing, the EITC, food banks, and things are so good that we literally can’t stop the poor masses from illegally crossing our borders in order to live here.

There is a fever dream in the woke / intellectual left in America that some long struggling proletariat will rebel. This is against the ethos and culture of America as a bootstraps, capitalistic nation that even the leaders of the Democratic Party have to bluntly reject socialism (see Nancy Pelosi’s shouting at the question).

My wife is Vietnamese and her parents were boat people. The entire extended family despises democrats and specifically faults their hatred of meritocratic education as a sticking point. The left has no idea what minorities really think because the party is run primarily by rich white people who exist in an echo chamber.

America is the land of opportunity. It will continue to be so provided we do everything we can to stop the deranged, intolerant, anti-business left from ruining what makes our country the best in the world.

Re: Modern Malaise

#129

Post by archhn »

seibelj wrote: post #128
archhn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the best of times and the worst of times. Some are taking joyrides to space. Others are struggling to keep a roof over their heads. The inequality is real and tremendous. You may blame people for their lack of work ethic, etc, but there are many reasons for nihilism among the lower classes. Especially the industrial proletariat who has seen industry shipped overseas and suffered a dramatic decline in their quali…

Things were way, way worse in the past. The US fought a civil war. The cities were systematically looted and burned in the 1960s and all manner of figures were assassinated. It is far, far from that today. It is far easier today than ever to get material support with food stamps, section 8 housing, the EITC, food banks, and things are so good that we literally can’t stop the poor masses from illegally crossing our bo…

Even if that's the case, corrupt politicians and institutions will use the disgruntled proletariat to gain power.

Also, many corporations are pushing for central government too. Walmart now is a private company. In the future it may be "The Glorious Walmart of the New People's American Union." In other words, large corporations have the potential of becoming a part of the government and retaining their status...plus the untouchability of being an arm of the government. I would say we've been set up for this.

So what may happen is this. Large institutions may use the proletariat to overthrow the middle class and institute oligarchic collectivism, like 1984. It happened in China, and clearly the elites have no qualms about their system--given our utter economic interconnectedness with them.

Re: Modern Malaise

#130

Post by strawhatguy »

excuses_ wrote: post #87
seydor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

social democrat parties are in major decline all over europe, even in sweden. Well, social democracy is also the welfare system, and it also requires high social trust, and it also incurs debt for future generations. I may be wrong, but i think social democracy was only possible during the (not so brief) moment of the boomers.

It does not incur debt. Sweden or Denmark has been having debt to GDB ratio constantly declining. I think social democracy can work but it’s hard and requires huge discipline from government and people. Also, it seems much easier to introduce in smaller countries.

Incurring debt is different than the ratio of debt to gdp (or anything else).
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