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Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

reason.com

121–130 of 449 posts

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#121
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People drastically overestimate what will get you moved out of the pool. If you say in voir dire that you wouldn't vote to convict even if the person is guilty, you're not going to get put on a jury.

No, but you might be put in a jail cell overnight for contempt.

This is complete BS and I would posit you’re just making things up. Link me to an article about a potential juror spending at least one night in jail due to saying they won’t convict during pre-trial jury selection.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#122
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyer- "Would you nullifiy this verdict due to personal beliefs?" Juror with strong opinions "ohh no, never"

How it actually works (based on serving in jury selection pools): Lawyer: Are members of your profession stereotypically capable of independent critical thought? Juror: Yes? Lawyer: Dismissed. (They just ask for professions and maybe educational background then infer the rest.)

Not my experience at all. And remember, what's good for the prosecutor, is bad for the defense, and vice versa.

And each side gets only a handful of dismissals. You waste it on some guy you think is "too smart" and you might not be able to use it on that guy who thinks your client is guilty already.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#123
post #14
post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

They could, for instance, prevent for most of a century most prosecutions for lynching.

Although this is about the jury, this is actually something that turns me away from progressive parties: the only reason you're fighting for something is because Congress failed to acknowledge it for 250 years consecutively and we're supposed to pretend that this time its different.

The similarity here being that Congress sat on its hands regarding lynching for over a hundred years, followed by another 100 years of the Senate blocking everything the House brought up till just this year, long after everyone independently decided "hey, let's not lynch people". Its not supposed to be a defeatist approach, its just "hey lets focus on something that has consensus because trying this again is just a waste of energy". I'm interested in some aspects of fiscal and foreign policy, for example. That priority might not come from the same party.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think of this as an utter failure of the system, but lingering on this for a while: if the vast majority of citizens (= people who can meaningfully participate in the society) thinks lynching is a good thing, the jury nullification is only a step behind making lynching OK in the books for that group. Of course there could be upper laws blocking them from making it an official stance, but it really feels lik…

I mean, if "the vast majority of citizens thinks something is a good thing", shouldn't it be legal in the first place? Because democracy.

That’s the argument advocates of direct democracy generally support, but no actual democratic systems fully implement direct democracy. In practice what we generally have is representative democracy, where we delegate the power to make laws, and make and implement policy to representatives.

Those representatives have personal moral responsibility for the laws and decisions they make and are sovereign individuals in their own right, as is any citizen. There’s an argument (I think a strong one) that having been elected they have a right to make laws or rule according to their own beliefs and conscience, within the limits of the law. They’re not just the compliant meat puppets of “the people”.

Of course there are examples of direct democracy, in the form of referendums on specific issues, and these highlight many of the problems with direct democracy. You end up with votes raising spending, alongside votes cutting taxes, with a side order of votes banning government borrowing. You get situations like Switzerland voting to align with the EU along with its free movement provisions, then a referendum mandating ending free movement (but not any other aspects of the treaty), then a referendum confirming maintaining the EU treaty. Take Brexit, what does it mean? Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, there are infinite different possible variations. Which one did the British public intend? Well, different members of the public intended different things, who gets to choose? What happens when the public vote for one thing but most elected people in government responsible for implementing it think it’s a bad idea?

The problem is “the people” don’t have a single coherent group consciousness capable of reconciling competing priorities. That’s what leaders are for.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#125
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but you might be put in a jail cell overnight for contempt.

This is complete BS and I would posit you’re just making things up. Link me to an article about a potential juror spending at least one night in jail due to saying they won’t convict during pre-trial jury selection.

Sure: just search for [voir dire contempt]. The first SERP for me had a law firm page with examples when I looked earlier this evening. I'm not saying it's likely, for what it's worth, but if you lie to avoid jury selection (which is what they're going to think you're doing), it's a possibility.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#126

Some quotations... for me, the quote from Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is important: 'The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts.' https://www.jurorsrule.com/quotations-and-comments-on-fully-...

The only quote from him that I know by heart: "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."

Wow! I have been saying for a while now that in the US at least the judicial system had no relationship with justice or reason. The false pretense of impartiality and apolitical decision making leads most to believe otherwise.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#127
post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

"Imagine a town didn't like someone of a certain political leaning. They could murder that person and it would only take one jury member.

>one jury member

Doesn't the jury verdict need to be unanimous? If they can't come to agreement, they redo the trial I thought. So one jury member can force a retrial, but can't force a not guilty verdict.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if "the vast majority of citizens thinks something is a good thing", shouldn't it be legal in the first place? Because democracy.

True but that works better when the lynchees get to vote with the same ease as the lynchers.

Even if they can vote equally, there's no guarantee that minority populations will have the numbers to protect themselves from the tyranny of the majority.

We haven't even gotten to the "equal access to voting" part here in the States yet, so we have a long long road before we get to the "voting is a good tool for minorities to protect themselves" phase.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#129
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think that saying lynching black folks is "in principle clearly wrong" is one example where I am okay with thinking that I am certain enough to override a "community's beliefs" about what is right or wrong. I don't think that this is a magical power.

The problem is that the people who thought lynching was fine had the same sense of certainty that you have. Which all by itself is enough to refute the claim that such a sense of certainty is sufficient.

Yes, they did. But we've improved as a species. We may not recognize what our descendents will consider barbaric in our behavior, but we can be the ratchet that prevents us from repeating the barbarism of our forbears.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#130
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think that saying lynching black folks is "in principle clearly wrong" is one example where I am okay with thinking that I am certain enough to override a "community's beliefs" about what is right or wrong. I don't think that this is a magical power.

The problem is that the people who thought lynching was fine had the same sense of certainty that you have. Which all by itself is enough to refute the claim that such a sense of certainty is sufficient.

I think the golden rule is usually sufficient. almost nobody wants to be lynched. likewise stolen from or harmed. the world is a better place with people abiding by that
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