Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid • Hacker News Board

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#121

Post by Retric » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #69

Thorentis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to realise that not all forms of renewable generation are good solutions in all parts of the world, just because they're renewable. I hate the "green energy" cults that shout you down for suggesting solar might be bad idea for these sorts of reasons.

Well, bad idea for now . If we can start storing up solar energy for the winter, then it might start making a lot of sense. The sand battery that can store thermal energy for months seems pretty interesting in this aspect. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520

Getting one discharge per year and being less than 30% efficient is a major limitation for any kind of construed thermal battery.

A more viable though still impractical approach is to store energy in rocks underground. Essentially trading the need for a multi km deep borehole for geothermal with the need to provide your own heat.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#122

Post by cozzyd » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

mrep wrote: post #112

dx034 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, it always baffled me that power outages are such a common phenomenon in the US. I've heard stories about rolling blackouts due to heat/cold from people in all areas in the US. Whereas in Europe, I cannot remember a single instance rolling blackouts were used because of a gap in supply. Sure, Europeans pay more for electricity, but maybe that spare capacity and inter-connectivity is worth it.

The only power outages I have had in Chicagoland have been due to trees and those get resolved in a few hours. I'm pretty sure TX and CA are the outliers.

In 8 years of living in Chicago... I've had the power go out for approximately 2 seconds.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#123

Post by jjt-yn_t » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

No post body was provided.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#124

Post by repler » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 3:47 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #117

repler wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noted that as well, but it did give context for why it’s worth looking at this data right now. For me it was relevant to answer “oh that interesting, someone posted this ERCOT data I wonder what’s going this week” Kind of weird my comment was downvoted so heavily - but whatever. The dashboard was posted to Reddit over a year ago during DIFFERENT issues for ERCOT so it seemed relevant to find out what’s going on thi…

Well, it could have something to do with right wing weirdos slamming wind farms as the reason for all failures of Ercot. And the article bringing up the winter issues when mostly the gas/thermal plants failed. And not mentioning the fact Ercot decided out to be a part of a bigger market that could help the situation by trading the energy with other states. And the capacity planning issues. Instead it effectively says…

Okay, sorry, not an expert on this.

Why do you think someone posted the dashboard link that was already shared over a year ago? Is ERCOT having issues this month? What is the cause of the issues?

I am legitimately asking. I don't know, so that's the only recent link I was able to find.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#125

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

dx034 wrote: post #85

baq wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don't worry, the grid in EU isn't issue-free by any standard and solar and electric cars will do it no good at all.

I know it's not issue free. But Europeans tend to pay a premium to avoid its shortcomings rather than have blackouts. And I prefer that over having cheaper electricity but with a threat of blackouts.

The 48 states that aren't Texas and California just don't have these problems

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#126

Post by TaylorAlexander » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

soganess wrote: post #73

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say there is no shortage of demand? If demand is elastic then lower price would mean more demand. I know that’s just econ101 which is often misleading, but what makes you say otherwise?

I only ever took econ 101, so forgive me if I'm missing a subtle point... Isn't saying that there exists a *shortage* of demand the same as saying that there is available supply but no one is willing to buy at the current price? Thus, by definition, there cannot be a shortage of demand if all units are being purchased at the current price?

On a typical supply and demand curve you can expect that raising the price reduces demand. No one in this thread has actually established that all units are being purchased by the USA. So what you will see are projects in the US that would have gone to solar if it was 30% cheaper but instead go to natural gas or some other source, and those units that would have been purchased get purchased by people in other countries.

But also if demand significantly exceeds supply, that is cause for manufacturers to make more investment in increased production. You’d see major solar projects booking out orders six months in advance for example, and with more demand they would book out one year in advance let’s say. So the thing is that demand is a gradient and it’s not a binary thing of “everything is being purchased”. Raising the price of something will usually price someone out of that purchase.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#127

Post by nvahalik » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

arminsergiony wrote: post #99

What kind of information are we, as energy layman, supposed to glean from this? How can one present data in a way that conveys actual significance to the audience? All of this information, yet I still don't feel any wiser.

There are some bits missing from this dashboard but as a layman who lives in TX, let me give you the rundown I gave a friend:

This dashboard gives you an overall of the capabilities and capacity of the grid.

Capacity and Demand - How much capacity the system has available against how much is being used in real-time. As the two lines get closer together, it can indicate that the grid is nearing capacity and the need for conservation or an EEA may be necessary.

Grid Frequency - While related to load, a lot of appliances keep their clocks based off of the grid frequency. Our grid is 60Hz. Deviations from that are expected and usually OK. However, anything greater than ~.5% is considered bad and a 1% variation (e.g. 59.4 Hz) can actually cause equipment damage. In fact, the reason we had load shedding back in Feb '21 was because we got down to 59.4Hz.

Wind & Solar Generation - How much of our capacity is coming from those sources. The days where Wind is down usually is when conservation notices come in.

Energy Flow to/from Other grids - How much power are we getting/sending from/to other grids. We have ties to MX, a "railroad" tie as well as ties to the eastern/western grids. We can and do import/export up to about 800 MW from those grids when needed.

ERCOT Ancillary Real Time is where things (IMO get interesting).

Supply Regulation (freq. adjustment) and ancillary supply are really the big indicators of issues. The more "supply regulation" that goes online the more we are having to adjust the frequency of the grid to compensate. If the grid frequency is too low and all of the regulation freq. up has been deployed—that's a BIG issue and indicates that the system cannot deliver enough.

If the system has deployed all of its online/offline reserve capacity, then there simply is no more generation capacity available. When things "get bad" THOSE two are the ones to watch because those are the ones that are engaged in ensuring the overall stability of the system.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#128

Post by TameAntelope » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #86

TameAntelope wrote: post #2

Odd to present temperature in Celsius for a US state, but otherwise very cool! I wish it were easier to see the moments when demand and capacity were at their closest, as those are the "interesting" moments.

> Odd to present temperature in Celsius for a US state It's only odd if you assume that any type of data presentation is always targeted to those living in the area the data is collected for, which of course is not always true. And as others have pointed out, Celsius is in fact used in the US by scientists, physicians etc. -- just not by laymen.

This is a site for American laypeople primarily, so yeah I do think it an odd choice.

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#129

Post by viraptor » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

repler wrote: post #124

viraptor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it could have something to do with right wing weirdos slamming wind farms as the reason for all failures of Ercot. And the article bringing up the winter issues when mostly the gas/thermal plants failed. And not mentioning the fact Ercot decided out to be a part of a bigger market that could help the situation by trading the energy with other states. And the capacity planning issues. Instead it effectively says…

Okay, sorry, not an expert on this. Why do you think someone posted the dashboard link that was already shared over a year ago? Is ERCOT having issues this month? What is the cause of the issues? I am legitimately asking. I don't know, so that's the only recent link I was able to find.

Can't speak for their intentions, but it's data, it's cool, and maybe they didn't see it before (I didn't)

Re: Datadog dashboard for the Texas power grid

#130

Post by heavenlyblue » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 11:30 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #81

dcsan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since batteries are always the issue... How inefficient is mechanical storage? For example using electricity to just raise a heavy mass then as that lowers it can produce power. It seems that would be cheap to build at scale with the chance for almost unlimited storage. I have to assume there would be a more than 50% loss through the process, hope someone on hn can comment. Maybe it's not worth it when you can tap in…

> How inefficient is mechanical storage? The density is the problem. If you raise a 25,000kg mass by 100m, that's 24.5MJ, or roughly the energy contained in one kilogram of coal. Or 6.6kWh (standard meter units) of electricity. (and that's on the input side, not accounting for losses)

That’s not how water storage works though for example. You are forgetting that for every unit of mass raised 1 unit, you can add another unit of mass where the previous unit was. Thus you are getting a progression of 1+2+3+4…up to the height units of power stored.