Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#121

Post by namecheapTA » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:22 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #105

woodruffw wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got 47 deaths per day from the roughly 17,000 fatalities that are directly attributed to drunk driving each year[1]. Even if we arbitrarily halve that to account for at-fault deaths at drivers' own hands, that leaves ~23 people dying, each day, because of drunks on our roads. In contrast, around 300 people died in total on public transportation in 2020[2]. In 2019, 34 million people commuted daily by public transpo…

NY troopers contradict NHSTA ( https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving ) by a lot. I wonder how do they gather their statistics? But your math does not make sense even with the data you have: you said if the drunks were killing in subway at the same rate as they do on the road then 47 people were killed in subway every day yet you took the 47 number from much larger pool of drivers. Should not it be a quart…

The biggest difference is, atleast for me personally, I know how to make sure I don't die on the highway... I don't drink, I don't drive recklessly, I keep my car maintained, and I pay attention to my surroundings. So I feel my odds of not being a statistic are pretty good.

I have almost no real way not to end up a BART statistic.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#122

Post by herewulf » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:24 AM UTC

credit_guy wrote: post #80

To me it seems there's more to this story. The crash happened at 1:10 am on a highway in Utah. I imagine there was no traffic at that time. Most likely there were only this motorcycle and the Tesla, and at most a few other cars over a good stretch of highway. When there's no traffic, motorcycles tend to go faster than cars. A Tesla on autopilot either respects the speed limit (factory setting), or it can be programme…

I drive this stretch of I-15 regularly. I can vouch for the fact that the road would have been practically deserted at this time of night. Fog is extremely rare because the air here is so dry.

I have to wonder if the motorcyclist had a non-functioning tail light. Then it would be hard for a human driver to see, much less computer vision.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#123

Post by TheChaplain » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:26 AM UTC

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #5

I always think it's weird how instead of just improving public transit, we've all become fixated on self driving vehicles. Good transit would mean most people don't need to operate a vehicle while having a plethora of other benefits like combating climate change and more efficient land use (if you live in a suburb, take note of the sheer amount land dedicated to parking; it's often more land than the store for retail…

> I always think it's weird how instead of just improving public transit, we've all become fixated on self driving vehicles.

I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time.

Example, for me going to work using public transit takes ~35 minutes, that is 8 minutes of train then the rest on a bus. (Not including the waiting time for the train/bus to arrive for departure)

Using a car, it takes me roughly 12 minutes.

So.. I save 2*20 minutes per day by not using public transit. How much is that per week? Month?

Some may argue I should move closer to work, but that would mean a way higher mortgage and a crampy apartment vs. my house out in greener areas. I think the choice is fairly simple...

Or that I should switch jobs, but there are no companies around my living area which pays the same, and I really enjoy job and definitely my living standard.

So unless the city put a direct line with no stops between my suburb and the area I work in, a car makes my life less stressful and more efficient.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#124

Post by herewulf » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:29 AM UTC

justsomedood wrote: post #88

credit_guy wrote: post #80

To me it seems there's more to this story. The crash happened at 1:10 am on a highway in Utah. I imagine there was no traffic at that time. Most likely there were only this motorcycle and the Tesla, and at most a few other cars over a good stretch of highway. When there's no traffic, motorcycles tend to go faster than cars. A Tesla on autopilot either respects the speed limit (factory setting), or it can be programme…

The speed limit where this occurred is 70mph. Most motorcyclists are at the speed limit. If the Tesla rear ended the motorcycle at 80mph (10mph difference) that is a life ending mistake. As to how the driver didn't see the motorcycle, if the car is driving for you why even pay attention? Especially at night when there are so few other drivers. The whole reason to use autopilot is to interact less with the vehicle. I…

Sorry but almost no one driving personal vehicles is driving the speed limit on this stretch of I-15. Most motorcyclists I've seen here are driving well above it and weaving in and out of traffic. It's certainly odd in this case that the motorcyclist was hit from behind.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#125

Post by wizofaus » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:32 AM UTC

TheChaplain wrote: post #123

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #5

I always think it's weird how instead of just improving public transit, we've all become fixated on self driving vehicles. Good transit would mean most people don't need to operate a vehicle while having a plethora of other benefits like combating climate change and more efficient land use (if you live in a suburb, take note of the sheer amount land dedicated to parking; it's often more land than the store for retail…

> I always think it's weird how instead of just improving public transit, we've all become fixated on self driving vehicles. I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time. Example, for me going to work using public transit takes ~35 minutes, that is 8 minutes of train then the rest on a bus. (Not including the waiting time for the train/bus to arrive for depart…

> I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time.

Absolutely! An hour on a train where you can do productive work is far better than 30+ minutes in a car where that's not realistic. So sure, self driving cars that do make it realistic to work while commuting are the ideal, but in the mean time, ensuring public transport is sufficently uncrowded and well-connected that travelers can realistically make productive use of their travel time makes a lot of sense.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#126

Post by wizofaus » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 8:36 AM UTC

beepbeepcabbage wrote: post #93

decafninja wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - it's a genuine concern in the US. In fact, looking at many of these public transit vs. car threads on HN, on the topic of safety, I feel transit advocates are not understanding the issue properly. Most people that dislike using public transit in the US are not afraid that the train or bus will derail or get into an accident. The odds of that happening are definitely tiny. What they're afraid of is some psycho o…

This is a US problem, not a train problem.

US problems have an unfortunate tendency to become world problems...

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#127

Post by SwiftyBug » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 9:28 AM UTC

wizofaus wrote: post #125

TheChaplain wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always think it's weird how instead of just improving public transit, we've all become fixated on self driving vehicles. I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time. Example, for me going to work using public transit takes ~35 minutes, that is 8 minutes of train then the rest on a bus. (Not including the waiting time for the train/bus to arrive for depart…

> I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time. Absolutely! An hour on a train where you can do productive work is far better than 30+ minutes in a car where that's not realistic. So sure, self driving cars that do make it realistic to work while commuting are the ideal, but in the mean time, ensuring public transport is sufficently uncrowded and well-connecte…

Do we really need to spend every commute hour working? To me long commutes, although sometimes tiring, have been a time to catch up on reading, listening to podcasts or just zoning out and thinking about nothing and everything.

Of course, we don't want to waste 2 hours of our day commuting, but this is the case to advocate for better public transportation that could take us quicker and more comfortably rather than believing that self-driving cars are the solution.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#128

Post by mwint » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 9:55 AM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #108

mwint wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd this $5000/car(/yr?) number come from? Total cost of ownership for a car is far less than that. You can only really get to $5k/year through very high depreciation, and people buying those kinds of cars won't be riding your busses anyway. Also, $100/hr to run a bus is probably a fine operating cost number, but you do have to buy the bus (capitalized cost) and take the depreciation hit just like cars.

Look at [1] and you see it's the average across the US. It's more expensive than that in many states. Unless you're discounting the purchase price/monthly loan payment/lease price. [1]: https://www.move.org/average-cost-owning-a-car/#data

Key word there is probably average. Median would be more interesting.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#129

Post by wizofaus » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 10:14 AM UTC

SwiftyBug wrote: post #127

wizofaus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that people with this kind of mindset do not understand nor can understand the value of time. Absolutely! An hour on a train where you can do productive work is far better than 30+ minutes in a car where that's not realistic. So sure, self driving cars that do make it realistic to work while commuting are the ideal, but in the mean time, ensuring public transport is sufficently uncrowded and well-connecte…

Do we really need to spend every commute hour working? To me long commutes, although sometimes tiring, have been a time to catch up on reading, listening to podcasts or just zoning out and thinking about nothing and everything. Of course, we don't want to waste 2 hours of our day commuting, but this is the case to advocate for better public transportation that could take us quicker and more comfortably rather than be…

Reading is productive work, as is zoning out! Driving a car in a gridlock...no so much.

Though I was also thinking that on days you're expected to be in on-site, if the job makes it possible, you can potentially improve your commute by coming in later/leaving earlier while still being available during regular business hours.

Re: Tesla on autopilot rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider

#130

Post by Schroedingersat » Mon, Jul 25, 2022, 10:39 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #39

moralestapia wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up a valid argument but, unfortunately, it cuts both ways. Aircraft manufacturers are liable when their vehicles crash due to malfunction.

If the pilot turns on autopilot and then stops paying attention, and then the plane crashes, it's absolutely not the manufacturer's fault.

If the pilot turns on autopilot and looks away for 60 seconds he's using it as intended. This is what autopilot means. Cruise control is not autopilot. The only way your comment would make sense would be if the typical environment for a car were a flat plane of asphalt 100s of km across with all other cars having centrally planned routes that were guaranteed by a third party not to intersect and drivers were trained to turn it off on anything resembling a normal road.