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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#121
post #42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browsers copy and store websites as part of their normal functioning. If you didn't want your website to be copied and stored then maybe it was better not to put it up in the first place? Anyway the IA will remove everything with a very simple, automated text file placed in the root directory.

So you say copyright does not apply to websites?

Where did I say that? By putting up the website you did, however, give implied permission to use it in ways which are fundamental to how the web works, otherwise why did you put the website up?

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#122

I love the Internet Archive and frequently donate to them (2 times so far this year). What I'd love to see improved is the ability to be less "fragile". Currently it's all located in the US and they have a huge focus on the US, both technically and politically. But why not try to replicate it all over the world? There seems to have been some smaller efforts inside the Internet Archive to make it more decentralized, b…

They tried. There's a duplicate in Egypt.[1] But it hasn't been updated much since 2007.

[1] https://www.bibalex.org/isis/frontend/archive/archive_web.as...

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#123
post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

Copyright is not absolute, it has some exemptions like fair use, historic preservation and education. IANAL but I understand they work fall in at least one of these categories.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#124
post #12
post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

Browsers copy and store websites as part of their normal functioning. If you didn't want your website to be copied and stored then maybe it was better not to put it up in the first place? Anyway the IA will remove everything with a very simple, automated text file placed in the root directory.

Browsers can copy and store, but republishing is a totally different matter.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem as cut and dry as you make it seem. Archival institutions are allowed to make digitized copies of legitimately owned works, and to allow access to that copy on their own "premises". In the case of an organization like the internet archive which does not have physical premises, would you accept the argument that their 'premises' is the internet? The question that they want answered is: where exactly is…

>They weren't just handing out unlimited copies of books. I don't think that's accurate. This lawsuit didn't happen until they stopped enforcing the constraint that (# of concurrent digital loans) ≤ (# of physical copies IA and their partner libraries have). Thats very different from a regular library, where the number of copies they loan out can't exceed the number of copies they physically posses (or ebook licenses…

Ahh. Thanks for that context. I thought they were just format shifting.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#126
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

"Rent seeking" requires a lack of created value. If you want access to these works, which you seem to be arguing for, then you are saying these works do have value. I suspect you are just misusing the term.

I've noticed this happening a lot lately.

I think what happened is the term "rent seeking" entered the zeitgeist, and a lot of people didn't bother to look it up but rather just tried to infer the meaning through context, and arrived at "somebody who rents things out" which can easily morph into "the software company that makes you have a subscription rather than just purchase it" or something like that.

People come by it honestly as for most people that's how they learn the words, and certainly the vast majority of human history language and meaning has been transmitted that way.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#127
Some people here say they like the Internet Archive, and resent copyright maximalism, but wish IA would be more legally conservative around copyright law: "follow the law!" "ask permission!" "work through other libraries!"

They may not understand that none of what they like about the Internet Archive would've been possible without a bold willingness to probe the boundaries of copyright law.

If you'd asked any mainstream copyright law authority in the 1990s, they'd have likely said the entire Wayback Machine was illegal under the letter-of-the-law, and advised against even trying it. "Reckless!"

Only by IA actually doing it – & demonstrating the indispensibility of such a historical record to academics, policymakers, culture, & the courts – were people's mental models gradually upgraded. Now, even with little change to statutory law, most see that the best interpretation of the various traditional categories, exceptions, & affordances of copyright law is the one that finds legal space for a Wayback Machine.

Bulk-scanning books-still-in-copyright, even for private preservation/use? Was legally iffy when Google & IA started doing it; now better recognized as legitimate.

Accepting user/collector uploads of live concerts? Storing, serving, & providing emulated environments for old still-in-copyright retail PC/game/arcade software? Bulk-archiving & replaying TV news broadcasts? All iffy when IA started doing them, becoming accepted as reasonable over time by the demonstration-of-utility.

An Internet Archive that waited for legal clarity before starting such projects would still be waiting today – and we'd have neither the valuable projects, nor the accumulated experience/clarity, from the actual doing, about what is reasonable & beneficial.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#128
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosures: I've written a book I'm currently trying to get published. Also, almost all of my professionally-written (as well as personal) code is open source. And I have used the Wayback Machine extensively. To be honest, I'm having a hard time getting upset over this lawsuit. As best I can tell, IA isn't getting sued over having scanned the books. They're not even getting sued over lending them out. Instead, they'…

The thing is that (probably because they didn't want to force the issue), the publishers seem to have been OK with lending out digital copies so long as the archive had a corresponding physical copy. Which AFAIK is not clearly covered by first sale doctrine but there's an argument to be made. OK, well enough. But TIA then does something that clearly violates copyright. And the fig leaf that is "But COVID" really does…

Digital lending has no legal basis in either the controlled or uncontrolled format. In fact, the argumentation is suspiciously similar to the ReDigi case. Courts generally have upheld that first sale ends when copying begins, even if the end result is the moral equivalent of a sale rather than a copy[0]. And, indeed, the publishers were grumbling about controlled digital lending (CDL) before IA pulled the National Emergency Library (NEL) stunt.

The lack of legal foundation for CDL is not entirely an accident, however. First sale and similar copyright exhaustion doctrines are hard-fought and won rights of the reader. But these rights rely on the fact that no actual copying is taken place. When you interact with any copyrighted work using a computer, there is an almost gratuitous amount of copying going on. If you so much as cough on the work, you are breaching copyright. Publishers know this, and they have been very successful ramming "licensed and not sold" language through the court system.

The funny thing is, while pirates have been stereotyped as waving their hands in the air and shouting "technology" to opt out of the law, publishers have been way more successful at doing the same, even though they fought tooth and nail against digital distribution.

[0] In the ReDigi case the "digital resale" software was even specifically engineered to erase parts of the file as they were sent to the new owner so that the number of duplicate bits floating around would be negligible at any particular time.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#129
post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

This is like arguing that Rosa Parks shouldn't have sat where she did. It's because of people like her that the laws could be overturned. I'm concerned that you're more willing to follow the law to the letter even if it's clearly immoral and catastrophic for our culture long-term.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#130
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, they should have reached out to the closed public libraries and come to an agreement where they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries. It would have been an incredible initiative that could have become sustainable well past the pandemic.

they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries That would probably have triggered the same lawsuit. You cannot rent digital copies of physical works no matter how much sense it makes.

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