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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#121
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand how you think multiple human species could impede civilization formation. Can you explain? Also, Australia only left the Stone Age with British colonization. It was plausibly the least technologically advanced inhabited area on Earth at contact.

I only observe the coincidence: while we had Neanderthal about, no moves toward civilization. Any reason would be speculation; maybe they and the Denisovans knew better? If so, they may get the last laugh, as it crashes down around us. Australia (Sahul, really) was a place with (apparently) no Neanderthal or Denisovans. Whatever would develop only in their absence should have happened there first. Or maybe in Sundala…

> Australia (Sahul, really) was a place with (apparently) no Neanderthal or Denisovans.

Things have changed.

> Denisova admixture and the first modern human dispersals into Southeast Asia and Oceania

> It has recently been shown that ancestors of New Guineans and Bougainville Islanders have inherited a proportion of their ancestry from Denisovans, an archaic hominin group from Siberia. However, only a sparse sampling of populations from Southeast Asia and Oceania were analyzed. Here, we quantify Denisova admixture in 33 additional populations from Asia and Oceania. Aboriginal Australians, Near Oceanians, Polynesians, Fijians, east Indonesians, and Mamanwa (a "Negrito" group from the Philippines) have all inherited genetic material from Denisovans, but mainland East Asians, western Indonesians, Jehai (a Negrito group from Malaysia), and Onge (a Negrito group from the Andaman Islands) have not. These results indicate that Denisova gene flow occurred into the common ancestors of New Guineans, Australians, and Mamanwa but not into the ancestors of the Jehai and Onge and suggest that relatives of present-day East Asians were not in Southeast Asia when the Denisova gene flow occurred. Our finding that descendants of the earliest inhabitants of Southeast Asia do not all harbor Denisova admixture is inconsistent with a history in which the Denisova interbreeding occurred in mainland Asia and then spread over Southeast Asia, leading to all its earliest modern human inhabitants. Instead, the data can be most parsimoniously explained if the Denisova gene flow occurred in Southeast Asia itself. Thus, archaic Denisovans must have lived over an extraordinarily broad geographic and ecological range, from Siberia to tropical Asia.

https://europepmc.org/article/MED/21944045

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#122
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But somehow, despite the fecundity of the Rosie Cotton-Gangees, with 13 children, the Shire had a total population of about 100k, the size of a small (edit: but not that small) town (or the UK population in 3000BC). So either pre-reproductive mortality is through the roof, but never mentioned, they haven't been there long[1], or something bad happened recently (before the events in the LoTR)[2]. [1] Except Hobbits se…

Well they were all over Eriador. There were plagues and other such disasters.

Indeed, though the Great Plague was over 1000 years ago, there was a famine more recently.

Maybe Hobbits really just are that resilient and cheerful that they just carry on despite massive depopulation events that would make the Black Death look fairly tame.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#123
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s kinda implied that Sauron’s rings make individuals of the various races more interested in sticking around longer than in producing offspring. Hobbits were relatively unaffected and had lots of children.

But somehow, despite the fecundity of the Rosie Cotton-Gangees, with 13 children, the Shire had a total population of about 100k, the size of a small (edit: but not that small) town (or the UK population in 3000BC). So either pre-reproductive mortality is through the roof, but never mentioned, they haven't been there long[1], or something bad happened recently (before the events in the LoTR)[2]. [1] Except Hobbits se…

Two things to consider here:

a) Historical populations were much smaller than current population, so 'big' scales similarly. The world population around 1700 was about 10% of current population.

b) And maybe the bigger effect, we've had MASSIVE urbanization in the last 100-150 years. In 1500, Europe had urbanization rates well below 10% [https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Europe/Demograph...], compared with 72% in 2015.

So not only were there 90% fewer people, but most of them didn't live in cities. Paris, the largest city in Europe, had a population of around 150k-250k in 1500, depending where you look. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_in_the_Middle_Ages#Popul...]

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#125
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the industrial revolution did not start in Siberia and it is proving only that it can't start in a world with so far removed population centers. Waterways are the cheapest transport option and source of water for the crops, yet nobody lives next to the biggest river around. The only possible reason would be if there is nobody to live there.

No, but as someone else pointed out: industrialism was going strong in Mordor and maybe even other places?

Mordor was starting an industrial revolution which couldn't have been older than 60 years. Nothing explains the lack of development the previous few millemnia.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#126
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal warfare is caused by competing for the same resources. Orcs must be under external constraints to fight with each other instead of spreading around to occupy/pillage other resources. We can accept that they are constrained to certain habitats and the same could be even said about the dwarfs, however there are many human nations in the books and none of them has created large continues settlement zones. Again…

>Internal warfare is caused by competing for the same resources. Politics is a sufficient condition. Perhaps Sauron would not tolerate 'independent' Orcs he can't use as canon fodder? >Again, the lack of people and trade on Anduin is a shocker for me. Yeah, it's the humans which are hardest to explain away. Some peasants should have thought 'We're tried of paying taxes to Gondor. We'll just move and no one can or wou…

You are giving far too much credit to internal conflict. Trapped between an empire of orcs on one side and those super racist elves on the other side (they certainly do consider humans a lower species, and how could you blame them given the humans' shocking lack of eternal youth), how much internal conflict can you expect? Even the most incompetent dictator wouldn't have a problem getting people to stand together.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#127
post #87

Something not mentioned in the article: Middle Earth is depopulated. Without large market, it does not make sense to produce at scale, nor you will have the capital to do it. The main characters travel hundreds of kilometers down the biggest river around and they don't encounter other vessels or a populated settlement until they reach Minas Tirith. And I'm not even mentioning the missing cities and villages in the in…

>however, Tolkien does not provide a good reason for the other human nations, the orcs or even the hobbits. Hm.. Orcs are easy to explain. I doubt Sauron or Saruman care at all about their lives. As the animated adaption put it: "When there's a whip there's a way". add in constant external warfare (and possible internal warfare too) and you end up with a low population. Hobbits are implied to have a very different pa…

> I doubt Sauron or Saruman care at all about their lives.

Also, orcs were twisted elves, so perhaps they also had slow reproduction cycles?

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#128
> I have never read Lord of the Rings. I’ve tried. It’s boring as hell.

The images in your blog suggest that you find the war really funny and exciting. As LOTR is a book talking extensively about the real nature of war, it may change your point of view and you probably should avoid reading it. Maybe is just not the book for you.

In any case, yes there is an industrial revolution in the second book (focused in the consequences of such revolution). The concept of a bomb is present also, so having fire weapons shouldn't be a problem. Technology plays a big role in most of the history. Often as contrast to the country life.

Gandalf uses a Colt .45 at the end of the book to kill the mischievous indian chief and save Rosita's sheep farm. Is in the last Peter Jackson's version: the Return of the Writer's Block.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#129
Obligatory TVTropes link: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis

Building a world that not just happens to be in a particular phase of history at the time a story takes place, but is somehow perpetually stuck in the middle ages for thousands and thousands of years seems to be surprisingly common in fantasy.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#130
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but as someone else pointed out: industrialism was going strong in Mordor and maybe even other places?

Mordor was starting an industrial revolution which couldn't have been older than 60 years. Nothing explains the lack of development the previous few millemnia.

> Nothing explains the lack of development the previous few millemnia.

But it also took many, many thousands of years for us to get to the industrial revolution. And we did not have magic, we did not outsource stuff to elves and dwarves, we did not have wars with orcs and dragons and other monsters and no extremely powerful transcedental/imortal beings actively involved/shaping the development of history.

And we only overcome feudalism because of the plague and the discovery of the New World -- non of which happened in the LOTR universe.

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