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Leetcode Considered Harmful

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Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#121

Post by lowendstock »

valbaca wrote: post #16
tokyolights wrote: post #8

While I'm not in favor of LeetCode-style interviews, I recently had a fairly pleasant interview process with a company that used these coding challenges. The twist was that they were all camouflaged as scenarios that resemble their own business, instead of some random unrelated concept. I found that their effort to make the questions look relevant made it much more pleasant for me to actually feel engaged and solve t…

That's exactly how I frame my technical interviews as well. I only pick questions which I could tie to an actual, real-world problem that we've had. A couple for example: 1. Given a set of number ranges (e.g. [1..3, 4..5, 9..20, 2..5]) consolidate them. Tying this to a real world scenario: we had a system that dealt with "time periods" and we needed to write a validator to ensure all future dates were covered by at l…

For #1 a Discrete Interval Encoding Tree may be what you want.

https://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~erwig/diet

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#122

Post by rbanffy »

AstralStorm wrote: post #65
rbanffy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On 2, to be fair, 10 TB of RAM is not that outlandish. That’s a fraction of what fits in a modern mainframe. I’d love to have an excuse to get a machine like that.

And the standard answer is that you won't get it. What then? You can also expand the problem to be approximately internet sized.

That’s unimaginative. I’d go for “you can, but you’ll get 100 machines of 100GB each”.

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#123

Post by wizofaus »

elcomet wrote: post #9
teg4n_ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I much prefer take home projects relevant to the job I would be performing than leetcode style puzzles. I dislike leetcode style puzzles so much that I will simply drop out of the interview loop rather than subject myself to them.

Please no. I don't want to work 10 hours on some project for free.

I see this complaint a lot, but 10 hours is crazy - I've been involved in setting, reviewing the results for, and doing such tests for many years and the longest I've ever expected anyone to take is 2 hours, which is more than enough to demonstrate whether you have at least basic capabilities as a programmer. As it is in the "real world" my biggest problem with other devs is for them to spend days on a story, then finally put up a PR that shows they really didn't understand the requirements well or make any attempt to clarify them. It's actually pretty rare I'd ever expect a dev to be able to take a story away and put anything like 10 hours time into without needing to discuss it first, so why would I expect that for a take home test?

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#124

Post by mardifoufs »

62951413 wrote: post #111
spacetraveler11 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a difference in the interview process between the US and the EU? Wherever I applied to in the EU I was almost always given a small, practical programming exercise relevant to the field I was applying for and for which I had a few days to hand in my solution (usually they were quick to solve, depending on the level of polish you would put in). In the interview itself we would then discuss the implementation a…

Very much so. The leetcode charade was invented in the US (and even ten years ago it wasn't common). Nowadays it's the only way they do it here even in regular companies with unremarkable tech and benefits. The FAANGs brought this style to the EU but it's not as [dynamic programming-level] crazy yet. Interviewing in Europe feels more humane while here in the States it's gives you a distinct mechanical taste. And Euro…

It's not more humane, the entire process in europe is extremely "credential" based. Good luck getting any type of SWE interview in france without at least a good degree. And if you aren't from a "grande école" you will never get above team lead no matter how competent you are.

It's not even a glass ceiling, it's a full on concrete slab over your head. Management is completely sealed off depending on your Alma mater.

So yeah sure, the interview process is relaxed and gentle because you basically wouldn't even be given a chance if your education/credentials weren't enough for a given position/salary .

At least the American way gives you a chance to get your feet through the door at almost any level. That's why the interviews are harder, you get a chance to get a really high paying job without having to go to say, Polytechnique Paris. Obviously graduating from Stanford will probably help you a looot still, and your Alma Mater... matters. But you can get by just fine with a diploma from a state university, it doesn't completely shut you off from those very high end jobs. And if you don't want those SV-tier jobs and aim for something less competitive, the interview process is usually just as "humane" and laid back as in europe.

I don't know about the rest of europe but I don't think americans realize how "hierarchically stiff" France is. Like sure you won't get to leetcode for a 300k job, but that's because you won't even make it past the CV screening.

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#125

Post by urthor »

lbrito wrote: post #105
AstralStorm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often enough someone gives a take home project that actually is not even close to be capped in the time range requested unless you already work on this project. Every such test is supposed to be calibrated. Leetcode... Is not.

Be that as it may, it will never even come close to the 100s of hours of leetcode grinding. It's not even the same order of magnitude. Like I mentioned, it is common to spend months grinding leetcode. How can people rationalize this and prefer it to a closed scope assignment? I honestly don't get it.

> How can people rationalize this

I've personally learnt a lot from Leetcode, and found the process really valuable. I learnt a ton from bashing my head against the wall until dynamic programming made sense.

I anecdotally code much, much faster, in all languages, having done it. It's like doing college homework again. Something useful that makes you a better "coder," (not necessarily a better engineer). It was a damn hard slog, but having done the hard slog I really enjoy having done it.

I'm not going to pretend it's not time consuming or I'd be happy doing it if I was a busy parent.

But in hindsight I've really enjoyed having done it, and found it extremely valuable.

I suppose it's for people who just have that kind of time/energy/enthusiasm for programming/their career.

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#126

Post by Jistern »

eikenberry wrote: post #37
Jistern wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well argued, but you didn't address the need for tests and/or certifications to prevent companies from being overwhelmed by a flood of unqualified candidates. A doctor, lawyer, public accountant, and, well, many types of engineers obtain public or private certifications. As a result, it is much, much, much easier for hiring companies to find and interview qualified candidates. I suppose, in the "old days" universitie…

That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. How many certificates do you see for musicians, painters, photographers? Programming as at least as much an art as it is anything else and art is very hard to quantify in the types of tests that most certificate systems use. It requires a project based certificate which needs more organization that exists today. IMO it'd require a guild like setup t…

>> That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions.

That assertion is blatantly wrong.

Software engineers are like civil engineers and mechanical engineers because, ummm, yeah, of that word engineer. See?

I found the following on The Internets...

"California licenses Professional Engineers in the following engineering disciplines: Agricultural, Chemical, Civil, Control System, Electrical, Fire Protection, Industrial, Mechanical, Metallurgical, Nuclear, Petroleum, and Traffic."

It's almost certain that software engineers will be licensed... just like many other engineers. Why? Because certification helps to ensure people who call themselves "software engineers" meet certain standards.

Just like blind people normally aren't able to obtain a driver's license, people who can't solve FizzBuzz shouldn't receive a license to be software engineers.

You are always free to launch a revolution in the hopes of overthrowing your national government so that you can make the regulations and laws you would like.

In the meantime, when the jurisdiction you are in creates a requirement for certain software engineers to become certified (not "if" but "when"), even if the law were to apply to software engineers like you (the arrogant artistic types, you know what I mean, right?), I suppose you'll probably be grandfathered in because governments usually don't want to fight too hard to initiate new regulations and laws.

Grandfathering the "crusy old-timers" like you keeps you off their collective back because, at the end of the day, you probably don't really care about the issue generally. You probably simply don't want to be bothered to spend the time and energy to become certified.

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#127

Post by Jistern »

philwelch wrote: post #54
eikenberry wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. How many certificates do you see for musicians, painters, photographers? Programming as at least as much an art as it is anything else and art is very hard to quantify in the types of tests that most certificate systems use. It requires a project based certificate which needs more organization that exists today. IMO it'd require a guild like setup t…

If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is.

Yikes. This is very poorly argued.

Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art.

Sure, arts have elements of science and sciences have elements of arts. But, there's a reason we don't normally call scientists artists and vice-versa.

Birds are not fish, even though some birds swim and some fish fly. See?

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#128

Post by Jistern »

AstralStorm wrote: post #61
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Various non-software engineering disciplines implement chartered engineer schemes. I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope.

Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail. Nothing like that exists in programming, not even languages or platforms. Which is why there exist multiple proprietary certifications instead focusing on specific details.

>> Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail.

I agree.

After enough bridges fell down causing massive human fatalities, standards and accepted practices almost certainly "emerged."

Standards and accepted practices in software engineering will emerge, as if by magic, once enough "bridges fall down."

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#129

Post by Jistern »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #48
eikenberry wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. How many certificates do you see for musicians, painters, photographers? Programming as at least as much an art as it is anything else and art is very hard to quantify in the types of tests that most certificate systems use. It requires a project based certificate which needs more organization that exists today. IMO it'd require a guild like setup t…

Various non-software engineering disciplines implement chartered engineer schemes. I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope.

>> I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope.

You are a diplomat sir; I'm merely a common street brawler.

Re: Leetcode Considered Harmful

#130

Post by philwelch »

Jistern wrote: post #127
philwelch wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is.

Yikes. This is very poorly argued. Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art. Sure, arts have elements of science and sciences have elements of arts. But, there's a reason we don't normally call scientists artists and vice-versa. Birds are not fish, even though some birds swim and some fish fly. See?

> Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art.

This objection would be better addressed to the comment I was replying to, since I was just accepting the premise for the sake of argument.

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