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Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

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Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#121

Post by iancmceachern »

causality0 wrote: post #108
Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design I'm pretty sure 95% of patent applications and 50% of granted patents are attempts to steal someone's invention out from under them.

Like Steve Jobs famously Said - something about stealing

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#122

Post by Veedrac »

I designed something like this before. Multiple shear lines with a two stage isolation-then-check is intuitive. The details matter, though, and this looks clean. I could see it manufactured.

My design tried to avoid it being possible to interact with any of the components storing the code before the pins are isolated. I did this by having two styles of pins (normal vs. T-shaped), and an insertable bar in a specially-cut slot, which checked the right combination of pins were along for the ride.

Enclave seems like a much more sensible design in terms of implementation elegance and reliability. This is even more stark compared to other even more complicated designs I have seen. Versus my concept, it also makes it possible to have more than 1 bit per slot. To be completely cautious, however, and fully obsolete those other designs, it would make sense for the top pins to be very slightly spooled along their full length, such that the cut is guaranteed never to touch the sidewall.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#123

Post by nielsbot »

franciscop wrote: post #98
harrisi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interaction of engineering and "use" by the Lock Picking Lawyer ( https://youtu.be/Ecy1FBdCRbQ ) was fascinating - "use" here really meaning "exploiting". It's a problem many here are aware of, either by over-engineering things intended for use by non-engineers, or designing things to be used by customers when the designer isn't intimately familiar with the use. In this case it was sort of somewhere in between. I…

Def want to see Enclave's under Lock Picking Lawyer! If you make a "unpickable lock" you'd def want to send it to LPL, that's like the ultimate proof of how easy/hard it is to pick. The fact that there's no video, with how approachable LPL is and accepts random locks in his PO box, can only be seen as a red flag. Do it in the open, like Stuff Made Here!

I think it's just too soon?

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#124

Post by Hellbanevil »

causality0 wrote: post #108
Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design I'm pretty sure 95% of patent applications and 50% of granted patents are attempts to steal someone's invention out from under them.

No post body was provided.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#125

Post by bryans »

kortex wrote: post #117
bryans wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And based on the test mechanism simply requiring a ~46 degree turn to fail, I think it could actually be done in ~300ms per attempt, which would make the maximum solution even lower at ~4 hours. That's of course still a lot better than a traditional mechanism, which even brute force robotic pickers can tear through rapidly, but it's far from "unpickable." Ultimately, even lengthening the time per attempt wou…

Those master cylinders are of specific dimensions, variable length and probably mass as well. I wonder if one could analyze the audio frequency spectrum, and/or mechanical impulse response, to deduce the length of the master and work out the bitting.

The fun part of audio is that there's multiple ways to do it. You can use spectrum analysis, impulse response, harmonic frequency, beamforming, triangulation and more. Some would be easier than others in this situation, but you could technically use any of them to pick this lock.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#127

Post by xzel »

hangonhn wrote: post #109
elromulous wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. LPL has disproven the claims of many "unpickable" locks. If computer security has taught me anything, unhackable/impenetrable claims, cyber or physical, should be met with skepticism.

I used to be huge Abloy Protec2 fanboy until I found out that they are very litigious, which made me wonder if their locks have been picked but the results were just taken down. I think they are still great locks. If anyone is going to break into my house there are easier and faster ways than picking the lock. However, the notion of an unpickable lock requires a lot of convincing for me to accept now.

The middle part is always what I tell people, yeah you locked the door but did you lock your window panes?

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#128

Post by W0lf »

Why did the pins stay in place once they have been pushed into the correct position with the lockpick in the first example (for the old regular lock). I didn’t understand that and would assume that those pins fall back down once the lockpick moves to the next one?

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#129

Post by espadrine »

Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

It is even closer to the design I published a year ago: https://github.com/espadrine/lock-designs/blob/main/commitme...

I don’t see how this patent has any legs to stand on.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#130

Post by sircastor »

There's an old Justice League Graphic Novel by Alan Moore (I think) I read about 20 years ago. I don't remember the plot, but I remember a scene where most of the heroes - excepting Batman - are in the Pentagon addressing some threat. J'onn J'onzz (Martian Man Hunter) notices Batman lurking in a shadow somewhere who wanted to see what was going on without interference. MMH asks him how he got in. Batman replies that it's just another lock, just a different kind of barrier to get through.

While that's fantasy of course, I find the premise of an "unpickable" lock to be inherently faulty. I acknowledge that the design makes sense in terms of be unable to pick it by nature, but I can't help but think that the correct pick hasn't been invented or the appropriate technique hasn't been discovered. At the end of the day, it's just another lock, a different kind of barrier.

I also want to say that lock picking seems mostly to have become a parlor trick, and a genuine nefarious attacker approaches the problem by going around the lock...

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