Live data from Hacker News

No-one knows what they are doing

successfulsoftware.net

121–130 of 187 posts

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#121
post #102

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

Wrt to imposter syndrome - I often have this feeling, especially since I don't have any formal training in anything IT related. Recently a kid showed up at work to do an internship. He's studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at even beginning to find the cause of a simple bug in a php application. Incapable of interpreting a bug report, finding the class that serves a…

> ... studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at...

One thing I notice in some rhetoric (not necessarily yours) is the idea that people are static. That if one is clueless now, they'll always be clueless.

People continuously evolve personally and professionally. The road to mastery and understanding always begins with confusion and uncertainty. It's totally reasonable that a student learning complex theoretical material will have a hard time, initially, with the day-to-day grind of doing practical work in a job.

Many workplaces have unreasonable expectations usually framed around the vaguely militaristic notion that their people have to "hit the ground running". It's based on bull. The only way to progress towards mastery is to periodically do stuff that one is "unqualified" for, sometimes that involves failure, re-tries, wasted time, and being seen as incompetent.

So many folks who are now "ninja's", "rockstars", or "10x-ers" started out as clueless newbs who were willing to put themselves out there, make embarrassing mistakes, be called cargo-cult practitioners, and who nonetheless continued with grit. Along the way, some helped and mentored them and others dismissed them.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#122
If you accept the adage “the greater my sphere of knowledge, the greater my contact with the unknown” (I do), you can see how the author’s sentiment exists even as we age and even grow in wisdom and knowledge.

One of my realizations is that it’s harder to telegraph what you don’t know than what you do know. It’s easy to see that older people have journeyed the paths were on, and seem to “know what they’re doing.” In reality, what they know (to some degree) is what we (the less traveled) are experiencing. But they, having thought they were coming to the end of their journey, have found their is yet more to learn and sometimes pop up in moments like this to exclaim “guys, this journey just keep going! I still don’t know! Acquisition of knowledge and experience has no end game!” It’s humbling.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#123

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

“Expertise” is often less and more valuable than perceived, depending on the situation. Give me a programming related question and I could have solved it a two decades ago on paper. The expertise allows me to solve it with more efficiency today. Similarly, there are things that lack of expertise help you with. You can see different perspectives. Have to research the topics fresh (find latest frameworks, etc). I also…

>expertise is far more transferable than ever

Small nitpick on this statement that makes a significant difference to me. I think the spirit of what you are saying is that "Experts are far more accessible than ever"

The youtube video that helped you, your neighbor, the instruction manual, are all sources of expert information. In earlier times people would have to find the right book in a library, or travel the world in search of an expert.

You are still trusting experts, which implies that they exist, which is different than assuming "well, some guy on youtube could do it - so it cant be that hard ill figure it out myself". you are instead acknowledging that the "guy on youtube" is an expert that you thankfully have access to because of youtube

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#124

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I see it as coming from 2 different perspectives. One is as you note, an antidote to imposter syndrome ("no one else knows what they are doing so I'm not alone"); the other coming from the opposite perspective: the autodidact who realizes no one around them understands the underlying systems and principles as well as they do, and so is frustrated for the opposite reason.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#125
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this largely depends on the definition of "know". E.g., when I used to work as a doctor in hospital, the last thing I would describe my colleagues as would be incompetent or un-knowing. They all "knew" stuff. Heck, they had to pass stringent exams, and were still accountable to several agencies to ensure being up to date. The thing is, 50% of what they "knew" was wrong. And if you looked a bit under the surfa…

I appreciate that you are using exageration to make a point, but it's worth noting for the record that iatrogenicity is hardley the number one cause of modern disease. Having a medical problem is a prerequisite to the chance of iatrogenic harm after all. Furthermore, a patient can suffer from iatrogenic harm even if everything was done correctly, and does not imply that someone didn't "know" something correctly.

It is not intended as an exaggeration. Though I fully admit I'm using 'iatrogenic' in the broader sense of "things people do or have done to themselves for the sake of treating or preventing a condition, perceived or otherwise". This includes alternative therapies, over the counter medications, etc. So I fully agree if your perception of iatrogenic was only things like "removed the wrong kidney", then I can see why you might have thought I was exaggerating, since that is indeed pretty rare, and there are safeguards in place for that kind of thing.

The statement is not intended as an attack against the medical professions or the effectiveness of medicine. It is intended as pointing out my observation that, typically, a doctor would list such iatrogenic causes very low on their list of differentials to consider, preferring to consider 'textbook' causes first. However, my own experience (which, is medical, but admittedly "anecdata") is that at present, iatrogenic causes are very relevant, and at least as likely, if not more, to yield a relevant diagnosis compared to textbook stuff in a high proportion of presentations.

A classic example of this is doctors treating symptoms by adding more medication/treatment options, rarely removing medications/treatments that may be causing those symptoms in the first place. Especially if that medication was started by a different specialist. It usually takes several rounds of inconclusive investigations and experimenting with treatments before altering an existing medication is even considered.

At the very least, having a "exclude iatrogenic causes first, before moving on to 'classic' stuff" is a good mindset to have.

> Furthermore, a patient can suffer from iatrogenic harm even if everything was done correctly, and does not imply that someone didn't "know" something correctly.

There's a popular quote often said to medical students when they start: "50% of what we'll be teaching you will have become obsolete or proven wrong by the time you graduate; unfortunately we don't know which 50%.".

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#126

If you accept the adage “the greater my sphere of knowledge, the greater my contact with the unknown” (I do), you can see how the author’s sentiment exists even as we age and even grow in wisdom and knowledge. One of my realizations is that it’s harder to telegraph what you don’t know than what you do know. It’s easy to see that older people have journeyed the paths were on, and seem to “know what they’re doing.” In…

Great adage. It's from David Christian in Origin Story: A Big History of Everything, but really it's just a paraphrasing of Einstein, who compared knowledge to a circle, and referred to the circumference of darkness, rather than the unknown.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#127
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrt to imposter syndrome - I often have this feeling, especially since I don't have any formal training in anything IT related. Recently a kid showed up at work to do an internship. He's studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at even beginning to find the cause of a simple bug in a php application. Incapable of interpreting a bug report, finding the class that serves a…

> ... studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at... One thing I notice in some rhetoric (not necessarily yours) is the idea that people are static. That if one is clueless now, they'll always be clueless. People continuously evolve personally and professionally. The road to mastery and understanding always begins with confusion and uncertainty. It's totally reasonable t…

That's the essence of the issue yes. Learning on the job is considered bad, but learning on the job is how most people learn. So really, we just fake it till we make it[0], and then we start doing what top comment mentions, actually knowing what we're doing.

This is then exaggerated by sayings such as "it takes half a year to get to full speed" in an attempt to either try and lowball learners, or as a defense mechanism as to why society should just cater to the whims of companies so they don't have to carry the risks. Despite the fact most people will be profitable very shortly after they get hired in a job remotely fitting them, if the company has any proper documentation on procedures.

[0]: And this is bad for the more anxious / modest / shy people. "Fake it till you make it" should be good advice, but it doesn't overcome massively inflated "must have but not actually must have" lists discouraging them on the spot, or the hundreds of mismatched job interviews and time wasted. I still don't know who benefits from the status quo aside from middlemen getting jobs that shouldn't realistically exist.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#128

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I spent almost a decade in public sector digitalisation in Denmark, and those politicians who look like they don’t know what they are doing in the media, well, they absolutely know what they are doing. Not only that, but they get advice from a bureaucracy full of well educated, really smart people, who also know what they are doing and have known so for decades. One of the…

That the UK government basically knew what they were doing may have been true 5 years ago. Today, not so much.

Do you think? They're starting to cut into our human rights, and workers rights, they've brought in measures to stop democratic protests, stripped public services, they've increased tax on the poor and removed tax from business/rich (cutting tax on Champagne whilst lecturing the populace on the need for austerity was a particularly evil-villain twist); they straight up funneled £Billions out of the Exchequer under the guise of PPE payments and then just said that the whole scandal want going to be investigated, they clearly had arrangements with the Met to allow them to avoid the law ... they seem to be doing exactly what they intend, making oodles of money.

They removed EU oversight and loaded top civil service positions with yes-men.

They've achieved a lot, all to the detriment of the country and regular people. What makes you say they don't know what they're doing?

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#130
post #116

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I think a better phrase is "everybody is winging it", because once you get good at something, then you tend to end up working on something that's at the edge of your current understanding, either through promotion or some sense of seniority in the industry. This isn't necessarily true for all jobs, but I think it's especially true in the software industry. I've been a CTO for 17 years, but I still feel like I'm wingi…

I'm going to go with "Not everything is designed, or planned. Sometimes the result is just the sum of a bunch of not necessarily coordinated decisions."

Some people know a lot about what they are doing and are highly skilled. A concert pianist doesn't just walk up on stage and wing it. What I think you realize when you grow up is not every decision or outcome was deliberately thought out and coordinated. Sometimes things just happen. They can even be the result of a collection of individual people who each is highly knowledgeable about their individual contributions with no single person responsible for the ultimate outcome. I'd imagine this is the way something like an automobile is designed.

Post reply on HN