Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide • Hacker News Board

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#121

Post by myshpa » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:33 PM UTC

cheese_goddess wrote: post #116

myshpa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to eat plants a lot. Just turns out they give me depression.(takes about 4 days after ingestion) Eat a diverse low-fat, whole plant-based diet - if you don't how or what, find yourself a weekly vegan meal plan. Supplement with B12 and you'll be fine. Learn to cook, explore vegan meals/recipes from around the world, stay away from processed food. > There is something called bio-availability and there are nu…

Wow way to mislead with graphics! This is where your first plot comes from: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local And it doesn't say that transport etc is a miniscule part in CO2 production. It says that of all emissions from farming, transport is a small part compared to land use change. But you present it like it's emissions from farming compared to all other emissions. Way to go! > That's a lie yo…

I don't intend to mislead anyone.

> transport is a small part compared to land use change

Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph.

> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?

B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#122

Post by uxcolumbo » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:34 PM UTC

cheese_goddess wrote: post #111

issa wrote: post #25

It is pretty insane when you think about it. We could get all the climate harm reduction benefits the article mentions if people would just choose to eat plants instead. Seems like a very simple solution.

People could choose to eat plants insted, but they'll also need to take supplements to avoid becoming malnourished, for example deficient in B12 vitamin. Feeding everyone a vegan diet and making sure that everyone is scrupulously watching their nutrients and taking appropriate supllementation on a planetary scale moves your "simple solution" to the realm of science fantasy.

Guess what... animal feed is substituted with B12.

Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.

Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.

I don't do anything extra other than eating a well balanced plant-based diet. Had my blood-work done recently (48 biomarkers) and it was all good. No deficiencies.

It is simple and definitely worth the effort - because the result will be not destroying our biosphere due to our meat & dairy addiction.

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#123

Post by cheese_goddess » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:36 PM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #108

neuronic wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be this absolute, please. So I love the taste of meat, but I generally don't think my personal enjoyment is sufficient reason to further harm both highly intelligent animals and the climate. It's a decision I have deemed egoistic with regards to myself (and myself only - I am not one for evangelism). I want to explain why my experience seems a bit different with "replacements". It is very hard to change habits,…

If more people would think like you it'd be a great step forward, i.e. putting climate / biosphere health & stability and reducing animal suffering above their taste buds and being happy with 'good enough'. Plant based meat substitutes are becoming better and better. Some folks can't tell the difference already.

That's because like OP says "Substitution works best with meats that are typically a highly processed mess filled with salt & spices". See how Burger King and McDonalds are so eager to sell you plant burgers and plant nuggets? That's because they don't give a shit what you eat, as long as it gets you in through the door.

But those are the same people, the same industry, the same organisations, that are responsible for the over-production and over-consumption of meat, and they are very directly responsible for deforestation and land use change for industrial farming.

Not eating meat may or may not do anything for the environment, but continuing to support the food industry does exactly the opposite: it supports the people who destroy the environment. And the ones who torture animals to boot.

Here's a simple solution: don't eat industrial shit. If you're going to eat meat, eat meat from a small, local farmer (not for the miles, but for the size). If you're going to not eat meat, then don't eat fake meat, but real food made of plants and that looks like plants.

And if you can't stand not eating meat, then sit down and think why not. Moralising about pleasure is dumb. People enjoy eating meat for the same reason we enjoy eating plants: because it's nourishing.

You want to save the environment? Eat real food and support the people who make real food. Not burgers.

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#124

Post by myshpa » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

cheese_goddess wrote: post #117

myshpa wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of non-animal sources for that stuff. We don't need animals for production of dietary supplements. IMHO vegans need to supplement only B12, as we live in too sterile environments to get enought of it naturally, for other things sufficiently diverse diet should suffice. DHA/EPA Omega 3s - algae, seaweed, spirulina, flaxseed, chiaseeds, hempseeds, wallnuts, cruciferous vegetables (brussel sprouts) Creati…

Great way to eat if you live in a rich country, or, dunno, California, I guess. Rather than saying "vegan", why not be honest and just say "Silicon Valley diet"? "Spirulina", "seaweed", "edamame"... I guess I can enjoy my nutritional definiciencies then, eh? Because there's no spirulina, or edible seaweeds, or edamame within a boat trip of where I live. Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list.…

I live 10000 km from Sillicon Valley, in not-so-rich country.

You can get your vegan B12 pills from your local eshop, no need to dive for seaweed (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=vegan+b12 - dozens, maybe hundreds of different vegan b12 supplements).

> Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list

See https://www.freshnlean.com/blog/vegan-b12-sources/

1. Tempeh - Up to 14.8mcg / 370% DV per 100g 2. Chlorella - 80-100mcg / 2000-2500% per 100g 3. Nori Seaweed - 11-42mcg / 275-1050% DV per 100g

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#125

Post by cheese_goddess » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #121

cheese_goddess wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow way to mislead with graphics! This is where your first plot comes from: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local And it doesn't say that transport etc is a miniscule part in CO2 production. It says that of all emissions from farming, transport is a small part compared to land use change. But you present it like it's emissions from farming compared to all other emissions. Way to go! > That's a lie yo…

I don't intend to mislead anyone. > transport is a small part compared to land use change Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph. > Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for? B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argumen…

> See the graph.

I saw the graph. You're using it wrong.

> B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.

So plants are not enough?

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#126

Post by cheese_goddess » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:50 PM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #122

cheese_goddess wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People could choose to eat plants insted, but they'll also need to take supplements to avoid becoming malnourished, for example deficient in B12 vitamin. Feeding everyone a vegan diet and making sure that everyone is scrupulously watching their nutrients and taking appropriate supllementation on a planetary scale moves your "simple solution" to the realm of science fantasy.

Guess what... animal feed is substituted with B12. Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D. Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins. I don't do anything extra other than eating a well balanced plant-based diet. Had my blood-work done recently (48 biomarkers) and it was all good. No deficiencies. It is simple and definitely worth the effort - because the result will be not destroying our biosph…

> Guess what... animal feed is substituted with B12.

> Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.

> Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.

Maybe where you live, but certainly not where I live, and where I eat. Don't project the destructive ways of your culture on everyone else. Not everyone eats the way you do.

I for instance, have been brought up on a Mediterrannean diet since birth and I still cook and eat for myself and my people the same way. The Mediterrannean diet is a plant based diet rich in vegetables, fruit, pulses, legumes, and also fish and dairy and overflowing with rivers of extra virgin olive oil. 80% of the traditional dishes in my culture have no animal products in them, or they have only dairy. In my entire life I will probably consume less meat and fewer animal products than any citizen of an industrialised country who turned vegan in their twenties.

So I'll take no preaching from you about how I eat, thank you very much. Fix your world and don't mind mine. It's not my lifestyle that is "destroying our biosphere", it is yours, and that of the people who live around you.

... meat and dairy addiction ... Faah. What clueless garbage! Milk and dairy is the richess of my land. You exploit your land to death and then you blame everyone else for your own failings?

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#127

Post by myshpa » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:50 PM UTC

koide wrote: post #76

myshpa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to eat plants a lot. Just turns out they give me depression.(takes about 4 days after ingestion) Eat a diverse low-fat, whole plant-based diet - if you don't how or what, find yourself a weekly vegan meal plan. Supplement with B12 and you'll be fine. Learn to cook, explore vegan meals/recipes from around the world, stay away from processed food. > There is something called bio-availability and there are nu…

It depends. Humans vary and, while you may thrive on a plant diet, you can't generalize your experience. There are people who have problems even supplementing B12. Others don't. You can't just tell those who have that they've been living a lie.

I know that there are always exceptions and that some, i repeat some, will have problems on a plant diet.

But it will be IMHO a miniscule percent/promile, not a majority.

> there are nutrients in meat that you don't ever get from plants

Plant-Based Diets Are Not Nutritionally Deficient https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854817/

"More than a half-century of creative marketing by the meat, dairy, egg, and fish industries has produced fears surrounding nonexistent deficiencies, which in clinical practice need no patient monitoring by physicians and dietitians"

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#128

Post by myshpa » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

koide wrote: post #74

myshpa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not human nature. It's just a tradition. And a tradition is just a story (maybe even a lie) we've been taught, and which we tell ourselves. Stories are easily changed - like slavery or patriarchy, for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw

Easily changed? Slavery is still real today in many places and took wars over centuries to get to where we are today. Seems like you have a very special definition of easy.

“People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.”

― Steve Perry, Men In Black

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#129

Post by cheese_goddess » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

azakai wrote: post #118

cheese_goddess wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating less meat is not "more moral" it's just what you want people to do. It's always the same thing, when a post is about the environment the vegans come in and start telling everyone to stop eating meat to save the planet. But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc, it's just eating meat that…

> It's always the same thing, when a post is about the environment the vegans come in and start telling everyone to stop eating meat to save the planet. In both of my comments above I didn't ask people to stop eating meat. Just to eat less of it. > But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc I an…

Yes, you didn't tell people not to eat meat "in both of your comments above" (nice hedge, I'll look at your comment history later) but you still only preach about eating less meat and not doing anything else to combat climate change.

That behaviour, which is typical among vegans, vocal, toxic, or whatever, is dangerous and destructive because it detracts from the true source of climate change: burning fossil fuels. Not one of you, ever, never, will start talking about the environment by saying that "3/4s of carbon emissions come from sectors other than farming, but..." or something like that.

Oh no. You folks jump straight into the meat business. And you only comment about the environment when there's a chance to tell people not to eat meat. Because you dont' really care about the environment. All you care about is that people don't eat meat.

And "eat less meat" is just one step towards that. It's not about saving the environment, it's about getting everyone to go vegan.

It's your ideology and you're here to promote it. It's like the Hare Krishna. You care about nothing else but meat and getting people off it. No intelligent discussion, no curiosity, no nothing except "Go Vegan! Now!".

Re: Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

#130

Post by myshpa » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

cheese_goddess wrote: post #125

myshpa wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't intend to mislead anyone. > transport is a small part compared to land use change Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph. > Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for? B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argumen…

> See the graph. I saw the graph. You're using it wrong. > B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering. So plants are not enough?

> You're using it wrong.

You like cheese, I get it. Care to elaborate?

> So plants are not enough?

Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary !