A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit • Hacker News Board

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#121

Post by lisper » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #98

lisper wrote: post #85

This is just one example of a much bigger issue, which is religious institutions quietly taking over secular businesses without anyone realizing it. It is so pervasive and so stealthy that it is hard to even talk about it without sounding like a crackpot. It has become a little more evident recently with the emergence of evangelical Christian activism in politics, but it runs much, much deeper than that. The LDS Chur…

It'd be helpful if you could provide further information, because I haven't heard of this before. Extraordinary claims and all that... > It has become a little more evident recently with the emergence of evangelical Christian activism in politics I thought evangelicalism has been strong on and off since America was founded; the rise now is closer to a return to the field after they were routed some time around 2008 (…

Evangelicism has been strong since the founding, but it is more brazenly political now than it has been historically. There is actually a legal requirement for churches to stay out of politics in order to maintain their tax-exempt status. The enforcement of that has gotten more lax over the last few decades.

With regards to information about entanglements between religion and business, start with the LDS church, whose business entanglements are well documented.

But the journalism about the more general problem is is not very comprehensive, probably because it is a very fraught topic.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#122

Post by dang » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

semiquaver wrote: post #63

dang wrote: post #46

We changed the URL from https://twitter.com/alphabetworkers/status/15373969466917724... , which points to this. Submitters: " Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter. "- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Commenters: please don't post shallow/unsubstantive/flamey things to this thread—or any HN thread, but this one seems to have been unu…

Apologies for not submitting the original source but I found the twitter thread and linked blog post to be more useful context than the nytimes story. https://medium.com/@kwilliamlloyd/the-cult-in-google-3c1a910... I was not aware of that guideline, will keep it in mind in future.

You guys may be right - I haven't read either the article or the Twitter thread. In principle I'm open to reverting the URL if the latter really is more substantive and interesting. But there doesn't seem to be a consensus about this.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#123

Post by neonate » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #53

dang wrote: post #46

We changed the URL from https://twitter.com/alphabetworkers/status/15373969466917724... , which points to this. Submitters: " Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter. "- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Commenters: please don't post shallow/unsubstantive/flamey things to this thread—or any HN thread, but this one seems to have been unu…

Changing the URL to a paywalled article no one can read isn't very helpful though.

https://archive.ph/9wQxA

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#124

Post by ALittleLight » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

chicob wrote: post #103

“We have longstanding employee and supplier policies in place to prevent discrimination and conflicts of interest, and we take those seriously.” Isn't adding a superfluous "and we take those seriously" the rhetorical equivalent of pouting? Every time I read this - after an account suspension, for example - the impression I get is that no, they don't really take those things seriously. They're just improvising or leav…

I just switched to hackernews from a Gmail conversation I was having with Google customer support. The chain started when a Google person sent me a follow-up from a chat conversation where the Google support person refused to help me. The follow-up mail said a reply "will come directly to me". I replied and a second emailer replied back to me to "thank you for your understanding". I replied again and yet another Google support person replied to me saying that because I was "logged out" my ticket was now closed and that they were glad they could help.

Reading your comment I feel there is just a commitment to shallow lies from Google across the board. For example, why would the first emailer even tell me replies went directly to her? It obviously wasn't true. Why would three or four Google people email me, do absolutely nothing, and then close the ticket? Why not just say "We aren't helping" or just ignore my request?

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#125

Post by robonerd » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #89

Workaccount2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Google is probably one of the most woke organizations, I find this hilarious.

Google, like almost every large organization, is de facto psychopathic. Its values align with "woke" values because its profits do not depend on the favorable opinions and/or work performance of racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, or other traditional Western bigots. Its profits do depend on the work performance of casteists, therefore Google will use every means at its disposal to preserve that profit. If tom…

> Its values align with "woke" values because its profits do not depend on the favorable opinions and/or work performance of racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, or other traditional Western bigots.

It's deeper than that. There are genuine economic incentives for corporations to align themselves with progressive values. Racist hiring schemes artificially restrict the labor pool, and would deny them access to many of the best workers. Furthermore, having a diverse workforce reduces the risk of unionization. Amazon specifically is known to track low ethnic and racial diversity as a unionization risk; the other big companies probably do similar. The most obnoxious aspects of corporate "wokeness", the anti-racist training and similar "get lectured by HR" programs, likely serve to decrease the risk of unionization by keeping employees nervous and on their toes around each other. A workplace where everybody is walking on eggshells, treating their coworkers like potential landmines, is not exactly fertile ground for labor organization.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#126

Post by lisper » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #91

lisper wrote: post #85

This is just one example of a much bigger issue, which is religious institutions quietly taking over secular businesses without anyone realizing it. It is so pervasive and so stealthy that it is hard to even talk about it without sounding like a crackpot. It has become a little more evident recently with the emergence of evangelical Christian activism in politics, but it runs much, much deeper than that. The LDS Chur…

Are you sure about your assertions? I thought all LDS Church child businesses (such as KSL, Bonneville International, etc.) and land holdings were taxed. I was under the impression only the charitable arm of the church was not taxed (i.e. donations). IANATL though, so maybe there is some loophole being exploited I'm not aware of.

LDS tax evasion is well documented. e.g.:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/us/latter-day-saints-charity-...

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#127

Post by vizzier » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

robonerd wrote: post #110

derevaunseraun wrote: post #105

From the podcast: "He was the golden chain to heaven. The only way to get to heaven was to allow him sexual activity with me." ... What makes people join these groups to begin with?? Why do they believe such obvious lies?

Cults like this generally target and recruit damaged or otherwise vulnerable people. Also, they generally keep the crazy dialed down to a minimum in the beginning, then slow boil people over the course of several years. It often starts with "love bombing"; the cult heaps positive attention and praise on somebody who is unaccustomed to receiving anything like that.

Though a bit tongue in cheek this classic video covers the basics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBK5aKOr2Fw

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#128

Post by rossdavidh » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

InefficientRed wrote: post #115

Setting aside the issue of cults, recruiting from church networks is fairly common. It's not surprising and often not nefarious. After all, a church is just another social setting. People also recruit from other non-professional networks -- adult sports leagues, hobbies, alumni networks, family friends, and so on. Churches are just another social group. I am, however, surprised more companies don't have explicit HR c…

I think the biggest obstacle is probably that flagging it requires asking for information on it. There's a lot of icky history about quotas to prevent there being "too many" Jews in a particular organization, for example. If you ask what a prospective hire's religion/congregation/parish/etc. is, you may say it's to prevent a conflict of interest, but it looks bad, and probably invites as much legal trouble as not monitoring it, if not more.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#129

Post by kbarmettler » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

As a former Oregon House resident, astonished to see it on the front page of HN.

It's interesting to see the same strategy implemented at Google, apparently, that they reportedly used to get members employed by Yuba county. There was a minor scandal, an investigation leading to a bunch of firings, years ago. Allegedly members were using their ties to get the county to look the other way at countless unpermitted structures. I understand that blew over in time, after which there was apparently a rehiring of some of those that were fired. (Some of this is just things I heard when I worked at the grocery store/gas station/video rental, which was and I believe still is the center of commerce in the area.) At that time it seemed like the fellowship made up about half the town population.

Anyways, for years they were trying to build a large colosseum and that must have been much harder to hide than the countless little shacks without addresses that they put members in, up driveways that wended and climbed past the main, addressed house. I think the colosseum led to the county's investigation. I'm not sure if they're still building it...

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#130

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

_fat_santa wrote: post #96

goatcode wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. The culture of early tech (nap pods, free food, work whenever) isn't compatible with the more mainstream kind of employees they're now bringing on. Gone is the passion, from all sides, and the perks and allowances given to truly obsessed developers just aren't sustainable with both the bloat and complexities hiring anyone but brings with it. Good devs create easy times, etc.

For me its appearances versus reality. When I first got into the industry, I worshipped the chance to work at Google (or Facebook, MS, etc). I've since stopped worshipping and now I would not take a job with them. Often I wonder why my mind changed over the last 4-5 years but it comes down to the fact that I've seen how the industry works. Google is very much like any other megacorp, just with an extra coat of presti…

Successful companies might become megacorps, and you'd imagine there would be a new wave of hungry young ambitious companies that try to displace them. Trouble is the last generation of such companies included some with extremely shady and cutthroat cultures, e.g. Uber.