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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

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Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#121

Post by moistly »

minsc_and_boo wrote: post #81
pmoriarty wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a comic strip I saw during Obama's term, when he was hailed as a great compromiser. It showed Obama standing opposite a Republican, and the Republican saying: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you." So Obama takes a step towards the Republican, who doesn't move and just says again: "If you take a step towards me, I'll take a step towards you."

AKA shifting the Overton Window: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Alas, the young do not recognize how very far the window has shifted, because they weren’t around twenty, thirty, forty years ago.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#122

Post by Konohamaru »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #79
dathinab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of…

Explain Italian fascism, the very original. Their big boss (not named) was a socialist. Nazis were socialists and current Germany is socialist (not in name, but in behavior). I am not disputing the extreme part, just the right versus left, nazis were never classical liberals, nor religious.

Every political typologist considers the Nazis and fascists to be far-right. Saying otherwise either makes you look unbelievably ignorant, or one of those Nazi/fascists who are lying about their heritage.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#123

Post by kcplate »

teachrdan wrote: post #95
Auracle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another. If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll t…

> If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life The Republican party is vastly more anti-abortion and anti-gun control now than in the past. It is mainstream in the GOP to talk about punishing women who get abortions. And in New York, a Republican congressman who said he'd vote for gun control in the wake of a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, in addition to the one in Texas fa…

> The Republican party is vastly more anti-abortion and anti-gun control now than in the past

The converse of that statement is true too. The Democratic Party is vastly more pro-abortion and pro-gun control than in the past.

The two parties mirror their rhetoric on those two issues intentionally. Its literally impossible for one party to criticize the other on them, as they are both chosen as firebrands issues for their base. So if the GOP moves to the extreme on one, they are the cause for the democrats to move to the opposite extreme on the same issue and vice versa.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#124

Post by mountainriver »

welterde wrote: post #104
mountainriver wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the Quora link but it has a pretty good overview https://qr.ae/pvFQkJ This also doesn't cover his free housing plan which is very left. On abortion https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/05/06/abortion-acces... Also the current views of liberals on race and gender are far left by European standards Totally get that we currently have a significantly smaller welfare state though.

That summary on Quora is pretty decent and supports my statement of center-left positioning and that social democrats are probably the closest match. Some things like free tuition, free school meals are not really far left, but center-left at most. Some things like improving the voting system are not really applicable here, since we have somewhat less problematic voting systems compared to US. Other things like holdi…

We are pretty far left on abortion, Roe v. Wade is much more permissive than most European countries.

Race and gender in modern far left US views is also far left by Europes standards and the US is actually leading the way in this regard.

Europe is just way further along on the welfare state than we currently are, but thats only one aspect of liberalism

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#125

Post by tyrolen »

mountainriver wrote: post #124
welterde wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary on Quora is pretty decent and supports my statement of center-left positioning and that social democrats are probably the closest match. Some things like free tuition, free school meals are not really far left, but center-left at most. Some things like improving the voting system are not really applicable here, since we have somewhat less problematic voting systems compared to US. Other things like holdi…

We are pretty far left on abortion, Roe v. Wade is much more permissive than most European countries. Race and gender in modern far left US views is also far left by Europes standards and the US is actually leading the way in this regard. Europe is just way further along on the welfare state than we currently are, but thats only one aspect of liberalism

The US might be leading the way, but hopefully other countries won't be following. Redefining what it means to be a woman or a man (or neither, somehow) in terms of gender stereotypes is an awfully regressive idea. And the US obsession with the identity politics of race, sexuality, gender identity, etc. at the expense of class solidarity has been a disaster for the left.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#126

Post by welterde »

mountainriver wrote: post #124
welterde wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary on Quora is pretty decent and supports my statement of center-left positioning and that social democrats are probably the closest match. Some things like free tuition, free school meals are not really far left, but center-left at most. Some things like improving the voting system are not really applicable here, since we have somewhat less problematic voting systems compared to US. Other things like holdi…

We are pretty far left on abortion, Roe v. Wade is much more permissive than most European countries. Race and gender in modern far left US views is also far left by Europes standards and the US is actually leading the way in this regard. Europe is just way further along on the welfare state than we currently are, but thats only one aspect of liberalism

You are aware that even with Roe v. Wade there is still considerable variation in laws between the states? And I wouldn't say that the limits set by Roe v. Wade are at all very permissive compared to most European countries. Neither was the law recently suggested by the Democrats. And keep in mind that the ruling and the suggested law only restricted the limits the states could impose, the states themselves could still decide to be more permissive than that - and that maybe that's where that impression comes from.

I disagree that race and gender is a far left thing here. Of course you never really defined what you meant exactly here.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#127

Post by rossdavidh »

fuzzer37 wrote: post #56
rossdavidh wrote: post #37

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

Ah yes, the myth of the swing voter.

Well I'm one.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#128

Post by dathinab »

travisathougies wrote: post #112
teachrdan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally false. In most western European countries, women can trivially get approved for abortion after 15 weeks. For example, in the UK, if two doctors agree that it would be too damaging for a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, she can get an abortion even after 15 weeks. Compare that to the man you said represents the mainstream of the GOP. Ron DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after 15 weeks "without exempti…

In the United states, including in Mississippi, which started this case that went to the Supreme court, there is no government intervention at all in your approval to have an abortion. If you're past fifteen weeks and meet the criteria, your abortion is none of the government's business. That is significantly more progressive than Europe, and any other take is not in good faith. > Ron DeSantis signed a law banning ab…

You are to focused on the text of law, instead of the actual implications for the person needing a abortion.

If you look at the actual law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/BJNR001270871.html#B...

It boils down to (per paragraph):

(1) if you follow the right procedure (consulting, 3 days waiting then decision, done by doctor, no more then 12 weeks) it basically doesn't count as a crime (practically it's in a semi state between crime and not crime due to the constitutional court ruling you mentioned, it's anyway clear cut something you can not be convicted/pursed for, which is all that matters).

(2) if there are serve medical issues abortion is not against the law. This paragraph can theoretically apply to some cases of rape victims as it does explicitly mention mental medical issues/damage additional to physical issues.

(3) explicitly/automatically makes 2 apply to rape victims through only up to 12 weeks (since getting pregnant, not since the last period). Doesn't mean it can't apply post 12 weeks.

(4) the person having the aborting can not be punished if the abortion was done by a doctor and no more then 22 weeks passed (the doctor might be punished thou), if the person was pressured into it the judge can decide to not punish even if they normally would need to.

So what does that mean

- no the government is not involved, you never have to ask the government, only doctors

- yes post 12week there is no automatic exception, but you still do not need to ask the government a doctor is enough

- through theoretically a court case could be pushed to decide if the decision of the doctor was correct and paragraph 2 does apply to a rape victim in a post 12 week abortion so the best way to avoid that is to make sure its very clear that it's the case before doing the abortion, the lead to the common practice of getting two doctors to agree with the abortion (one of which isn't involved in the abortion in any other way). Even better (but not required!) would be to get the agreement of a state doctor (which is I guess where the idea of needing government approval comes from). Through saying a "state doctor" is part of the government is very very misleading, technically true trough. But their role is more like "doctors the government believes are competent and trust". I.e. their medical decisions are still independent from the government.

And sure this can be improved by a lot.

But then at least harassment of people going for a abortion is neither common nor tolerated in Germany (but seems to be common in parts of the US). Similar there is no in general no "attack" against doctors which do abortions, nodded of abortions as reasonable in Germany. Which from what I have heard happens in some US states often enough to be called systematic.

In the end for any conclusion I guess you would need to speak with people having gone through abortions (in various contexts/circumstances/US states/German states etc.).

PS: Depending on when you start counting the 12 weeks here might also be referred to as 14 weeks.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#129

Post by dathinab »

Konohamaru wrote: post #122
AdrianB1 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain Italian fascism, the very original. Their big boss (not named) was a socialist. Nazis were socialists and current Germany is socialist (not in name, but in behavior). I am not disputing the extreme part, just the right versus left, nazis were never classical liberals, nor religious.

Every political typologist considers the Nazis and fascists to be far-right. Saying otherwise either makes you look unbelievably ignorant, or one of those Nazi/fascists who are lying about their heritage.

Yes, through in Germanys political field the far right and far left are in some points very similar in practice especially just before Hitler came into power. At least iff you take a close look. This is why some people say in paractice the political spectrum is more like a circle with a small gap opposite of "center" and the far left/right being each side of the gap. Positions who are fully opposites are clearly right/left but not extremely right left positions, I guess (e.g. non-radical conservatives with non-radical socialists). But then in the end the left/right analogy just falls apart at some point (at least for any non de-facto binary political system).

Anyway this is why Nazis while mainly being far right managed to gather supporters from the far left. And especially in the beginning there where decision done which looked quite socialist, through in retrospective where basically always ware preparations.

I would say saying Nazis where socialists is quite wrong, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a bit of socialism their politics eve if just for pretentious reasons.

Through it also should be noted that the current political spectrum differs quite a bit from back then, neo-nazies normally have very clearly nothing to do with socialist and the far left has not many people which are extreme socialists but also nationalist either as far as I know.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#130

Post by dragonwriter »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #79
dathinab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of…

Explain Italian fascism, the very original. Their big boss (not named) was a socialist. Nazis were socialists and current Germany is socialist (not in name, but in behavior). I am not disputing the extreme part, just the right versus left, nazis were never classical liberals, nor religious.

> Explain Italian fascism, the very original. Their big boss (not named) was a socialist. Nazis were socialists

These are both true in, at most, the same sense that it is true that North Korea is a democratic republic.

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