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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#121

Post by Cd00d »

majormunky wrote: post #12
jra101 wrote: post #5

This happens to me just using the adaptive cruise control, no Autopilot or FSD enabled and it's super annoying. Can happen on a completely empty road driving in a straight line.

My 2019 Subaru Crosstrek has adaptive cruise control, and i've had it hit the brakes pretty hard when there's nothing in the way. Luckily it doesn't happen often.

Interesting. I've never experienced this in Outbacks - I've had the 2017 and 2021 models.

Is something occluding your eyesight cameras, like EZ pass?

Usually, the behavior is adaptive stuff all shuts off when the road turns to sharp or weather blocks the cameras.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#122

Post by adregan »

pa7ch wrote: post #46
dotancohen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I've tried and failed to reproduce this on my Model 3. I've driven next to trucks, motorcycles, under overpasses, under very-low overpasses, near pedestrians, and even passed camels and horses on the side of the road. No phantom braking. That said, when using the lane-assist, I do prefer to keep my foot on the accelerator pedal anyway. To increase range, I try not to get into regen at all unless…

Agreed this always bothered me about cruise control as well. Particularly for electric cars I am wishing for a dedicated physical toggle or slider to instantly disable or dial-back regen for the times I want to coast.

Hyundai cars use the little paddles behind the steering wheel to control regen level. It's pretty nice to be able to coast when you want to.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#123

Post by talove »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

I have a 2021 Y with FSD and more or less echo the I've got about the same sentiment. It's nice use it, but does weird stuff. A recent update seems to have resolved many of the FSD issues. It no longer phantom breaks at flashing yellow intersections, and a few stop signs for diagonal merging roads.

And btw, they certainly have the data whether or not you report it.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#124

Post by dmead »

itsoktocry wrote: post #117
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> My suggestion to Tesla would just be to have a debug button where you can report and elevate the past 10 seconds of driving. Wait, do you think that Tesla are actually obtaining all driver video and manually adjusting the model based on reports like this? I've seen a lot of fanatics with no technology background claim this, but I'm...skeptical to say the least.

yea why not? watch the automation day presentation from 2019. they're pretty clear about how much telemetry goes home in order to re-train the networks.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#125

Post by jjulius »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

>But that said, once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust.

I feel like a self-driving vehicle is one of those areas where nobody should have to "learn the quirks".

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#126

Post by robonerd »

jMyles wrote: post #96
Teever wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we need someone to figure out safe self driving before the effort is halted and humanity has to wait a century before a new generation tries again (like with nuclear tech today). That's quite the leap. A far more reasonable statement would be 'we need someone like Ralph Nader to spearhead initiatives to regulate self driving cars to prevent the disasters we saw in automobile safety in the 1950s-1960s.'

No disrespect to Ralph Nader, but cars claim about the same number of lives (more in most years) than they did then. Sure, many _many_ lives are saved by seatbelts, but car-centric inner-cities combined with the psychology of invincibility for the people inside the vehicle are a recipe for dead kids in city blocks, and it's an absolute blood bath out there. Sure, there are fewer deaths per capita, and fewer deaths pe…

I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data. Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections, and only 21% of pedestrian deaths occur during daylight. Of the 6205 pedestrians killed in 2019, only 424 were under the age of 20, and half of those were in the 15-20 year old bracket. The pedestrian fatality rate for adults is 10x higher than that for children (0.46 for 10-14 vs 4.6 for 55-59.) Furthermore, about a third of pedestrians killed were drunk.

Telling kids to stay inside during the day seems like fear mongering, but telling them to get home before dark is probably prudent. And don't let them drink (without supervision.)

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/8130...

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#127

Post by dylan604 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
robonerd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You continue using this feature despite these errors occurring daily? The way you describe it makes autopilot seem like an inexperienced teenage driver; I think whatever marginal safety benefit you get from it might be erased by the life-shortening stress such erratic car behavior must induce.

Can't speak for OP, but I'm supposed to be paying attention at all times while autopilot is enabled; as soon as I feel the vehicle may phantom brake, I apply more pressure to the accelerator to maintain speed. I believe the NHTSA is going to require Tesla retrofit radar on all vehicles to mitigate their Tesla Vision functionality deficiency. (submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a…

>(submitted lengthy dash cam videos and accelerometer data to the NHTSA as a complaint)

Did you upload video to them, or post a link from a streaming site? It would be interesting to see the analytics that a streaming site can provide to know if anyone from the gov't ever actually looks at the video vs the blind upload to a black hole.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#128

Post by yupper32 »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

If it often brakes hard and late to the point that people think you're brake checking them, then you shouldn't be using it. They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them.

Stop being dangerous on the road. This isn't a game.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#129

Post by userbinator »

olyjohn wrote: post #79
antiframe wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you mean. You seem to be implying that if a driver rear-ends you he can use his dash-cam to show you were at fault? Most places I've driven it is the following car's responsibility to maintain a safe distance which includes being able to stop if the car you are following suddenly stops. Yes, brake checking is a thing and could complicate any civil suit, but mechanical (now software) failure wo…

Yeah they should be following further back. There's no excuse to rear-ending somebody. If your car can't stop as fast as a heavy-ass Tesla, you need to be following further back. If you hit someone brake checking you, you were following too close. You never know when someone might need to do a full, 100% brake slam to avoid something.

You never know when someone might need to do a full, 100% brake slam to avoid something.

I don't know about you, but I usually look beyond the car in front and possibly the one in front of that one too in order to anticipate braking. If it's all clear ahead and the one immediately in front suddenly brakes hard, I don't think it's clear that it isn't culpable.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#130

Post by jjav »

wongarsu wrote: post #30
rideontime wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of the "inconvenience" to the driver who wasn't at fault but would have been assumed to be.

In which jurisdiction would the rear-ending driver not be at fault? He was either inattentive or failed to maintain proper distance. Sure, driving too close is common, but that doesn't make it right

The car behind who rear ends the car in front has a presumption of being at fault, but if there is evidence to show the car in front caused the accident (say, by brake checking them) then that can change the outcome.

Before dash cams, it was very rare for the car behind to be able to show any proof otherwise, so they were usually at fault unless there were credible witnesses of the brake checking.

But no, you can't just randomly threshold brake in the middle of the highway for no reason and expect to blame the car behind for your actions (or the actions of your car).

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