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What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

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Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#121

Post by prawn »

krapp wrote: post #90
IgorPartola wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t it be both? I’d you truly believe the earth is flat because the person who taught you geography purposely led you to believe so, isn’t that both a sincere belief and a lie?

Yes, since the definition of 'lie' covers both intentional and unintentional deception, but I interpreted the above comment to be referring to intentional lies. " Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power" doesn't read as sincere belief to me.

Depends who's defining "bullshit", I guess.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#122

Post by eru »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #15
krisoft wrote: post #7

> Moreover, ethylene in the concentrations that cause trances is extremely flammable, and there’s no historical record of any explosions or fires. That doesn't seem to be true. Herodotus 2.180: "When the Amphictyons paid three hundred talents to have the temple that now stands at Delphi finished (as that which was formerly there burnt down by accident), it was the Delphians' lot to pay a fourth of the cost." [1] I'm…

"There is no historical record of..." is an interesting assertion. On the one hand, it's easy to make and sort of requires no citation because there wouldn't be one. "There is no historical record of Caesar's fondness for juggling." But on the other hand, it's a dangerous claim because it's extremely falsifiable, like in your example. But I suppose it's easy to say "whoops, I read all of the historical records but fo…

> But on the other hand, it's a dangerous claim because it's extremely falsifiable, like in your example.

Making claims that are easy to falsify is good!

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#123

Post by prawn »

t_mann wrote: post #75
sdfhdhjdw3 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not training. Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power. Seems a lot simpler than "drugs".

The role must have been filled by dozens of different individuals over the centuries, it seems reasonable to assume that there was some kind of induction process for new recruits.

I think so. Churches have practices that some people might deem a bit odd. They involve a learned process and without the influence of drugs.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#124

Post by krisoft »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #66
andi999 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

The identification of dinosaurs as dragons is a common theory but I believe the historical evidence for it is extremely sparse. Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841.

> Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841.

Isn’t this a bit like how America was only officially “discovered” in 1492? To the general surprise of everyone already living there :)

There are descriptions from the 4th century China which can be read to imply that they found dinosaur bones. The area indicated by these writings is known in the present to have such fossils.

Can we say for certain that what they had were dinosaur bones? No, of course not. They didn’t describe their findings in detail and the actual bones were lost since then.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#125

Post by mgdlbp »

pjot wrote: post #114
dr_dshiv wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the image: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-only-surviving-image... Also, the ethylene theorists have a rebuttal. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/155636507014778 ... It’s funny that neither paper attempted to just try the stuff and, you know, attempt mantic divination. And there is some evidence for those laurel leaves (which were chewed) to be psychoactive. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/58…

Also, the ethylene theorists have a rebuttal. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/155636507014778 ... This page 404’s - do you have another source?

GP included HN's ellipsis when copying the link from a previous comment of theirs.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/155636507014778...

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#126

Post by ithinkso »

krisoft wrote: post #124
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The identification of dinosaurs as dragons is a common theory but I believe the historical evidence for it is extremely sparse. Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841.

> Still, it is really strange to me that dinosaur bones were only officially discovered in 1841. Isn’t this a bit like how America was only officially “discovered” in 1492? To the general surprise of everyone already living there :) There are descriptions from the 4th century China which can be read to imply that they found dinosaur bones. The area indicated by these writings is known in the present to have such foss…

Often 'discovered' in this context means 'popularized' or 'made known' to the audience in question. Not neccessarly the very first human who found it

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#128

Post by NKosmatos »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #107
dr_dshiv wrote: post #57

The only picture of the Pythian priestess is a red figure drinking cup from around 430 BC. She sits on a bronze tripod, holds laurel leaves and a bowl or water or wine. She would, apparently, listen to the rustle of the leaves— scry into the ripples of water — and feel the resonant vibrations of the tripod. All in order to channel the wisdom of the god Apollo. Sources of randomness to support creative inspiration. Se…

Here is the image: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-only-surviving-image... Also, the ethylene theorists have a rebuttal. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/155636507014778 ... It’s funny that neither paper attempted to just try the stuff and, you know, attempt mantic divination. And there is some evidence for those laurel leaves (which were chewed) to be psychoactive. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/58…

Came here to say the same thing, it's either Laurel or Oleander leaves that Pythia (the high priestess) either chewed or inhaled (their fumes). At least that's what I remember from high school and what most Greeks know. It's debated that the whole Oracle of Delphi thing could be a very well organized scam, but that's another discussion.

It's a place worth the visit: https://www.visitgreece.gr/mainland/central-greece/delphi/

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#129

Post by zasdffaa »

goto11 wrote: post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

Edit: I got this completely wrong, see comment from @Joeri

.

> Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals

Stating this as a fact is wrong, it's conjecture, and very dubious at that. In fact a few seconds research and common sense would undermine that. There are legends of giants in africa https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/gigantes/Africa.html> but the range of Neanderthals included that, see "Known Neanderthal range in..." in map here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal>

> The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc.

Ditto, and even less likely if you've done any reading. I think you've badly mixed up two things here.

Baseless but over-confident statements of 'fact' are getting annoying. Please try to elevate the conversation (unless you are, ahem, trolling).

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#130

Post by Lyapunov_Lover »

heavyset_go wrote: post #94

Temporal lobe epilepsy is hypothesized[1][2] to be a contributing factor towards the visions, fits, etc that various prophets throughout history experienced. Something like half of those with temporal lobe epilepsy experience hyperreligiosity or salvation[3] with their condition, along with religious hallucinations, delusions, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy#Effects... [2] https://en.wik…

A much more obvious explanation is that it involved nothing more than stream-of-consciousness rambling. You take a random sentence and you convince someone it's deep and profound. They work hard trying to understand it, and they end up having a sudden moment of insight. The sentence itself did nothing. It was the work in trying to understand it that did the trick.

Reading tea leaves? You're just looking at something random. Scrying? It's the same. Nothing about the Oracle of Delphi strikes me as odd enough to demand a deeper explanation than that. It was just a person making nonsensical statements.

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