This doesn't go far enough. The only thing that maintains the value of any asset (or currency) is the collective belief in that asset or currency. Put another way: there is an inescapable component of trust in every asset. Crypto in any form doesn't solve the trust problem other than a very narrow slice because as soon as you interact with anything outside of the blockchain, you're adding trust. Even on the blockchai…
If you have a backed stablecoin (as opposed to algorithmic stablecoin) that is pegged to the USD without any funny business, then the price of that coin can always be restored to $1. No matter how badly people "lose faith" in the coin.
Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
121–130 of 264 posts
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#122The problem here is the abuse of the word "stable". It's being conflated with the word "pegged". Pegging something to something else that is unstable doesn't make it stable. For as long as monetary policy in fiat continues to ease, you'll have more dollars around, inflating the money supply. The pegged item will need to match this in the long run to maintain the peg. Which won't be possible without further minting of…
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#123This doesn't go far enough. The only thing that maintains the value of any asset (or currency) is the collective belief in that asset or currency. Put another way: there is an inescapable component of trust in every asset. Crypto in any form doesn't solve the trust problem other than a very narrow slice because as soon as you interact with anything outside of the blockchain, you're adding trust. Even on the blockchai…
"So what actually makes the US dollar work as a currency is that it is backed by the long dick of the US government. This is a combination of economic, military and even cultural might." It's the ability to demand and enforce tax payments in that denomination - with the consequence of not doing that being you will lose property and liberty. Obtaining the denomination to settle the tax then becomes the discounted opti…
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#124Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
My house is valuable to me even if there isn't a collective belief in it. Most financial assets are backed to some extent by real assets. I'm happy enough to put value in USD or imaginary-coin if I can swap my holdings in them for a nice house/car/jet. You don't really need "economic, military and even cultural might" - just for the currency to be accepted somewhere where you can buy real assets and for the supply to…
The collective belief that you own your home is a crucial part of its value. If you come home and find a bunch of people partying in your kitchen, you can tell them to leave, or call the police and they'll drag them out. That's all due to the collective belief that you own your house. Without that collective belief, owning anything is a huge effort to defend it against whoever else it might appeal to.
It's feels very similar to a game. A serious one at that, with real consequences. It does not have a clear winning and/or losing condition though.
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#126This doesn't go far enough. The only thing that maintains the value of any asset (or currency) is the collective belief in that asset or currency. Put another way: there is an inescapable component of trust in every asset. Crypto in any form doesn't solve the trust problem other than a very narrow slice because as soon as you interact with anything outside of the blockchain, you're adding trust. Even on the blockchai…
My house is valuable to me even if there isn't a collective belief in it. Most financial assets are backed to some extent by real assets. I'm happy enough to put value in USD or imaginary-coin if I can swap my holdings in them for a nice house/car/jet. You don't really need "economic, military and even cultural might" - just for the currency to be accepted somewhere where you can buy real assets and for the supply to…
If people suddenly stopped believing that living in your location makes sense, the value would drop very much. See ghost towns.
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The only thing that maintains the value of any asset (or currency) is the collective belief in that asset or currency. Put another way: there is an inescapable component of trust in every asset Most non currency assets are cash flow generating financial instruments. If analysts don't believe a company is worth a dime, it can show them wrong by being profitable and paying dividends. Edit: I think my point is - even…
I cannot remember where I read this, but it was a view that basically the mere concept of a "company" is a collective fiction that we all believe in. As are nations, laws, etc etc. The idea that "tesla" is an entity one can interact with. That this "tesla" thing has value in and of itself. They're derived from beliefs in a system. Which could evapourate and render the idea of value meaningless. I don't think this is…
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
I cannot remember where I read this, but it was a view that basically the mere concept of a "company" is a collective fiction that we all believe in. As are nations, laws, etc etc. The idea that "tesla" is an entity one can interact with. That this "tesla" thing has value in and of itself. They're derived from beliefs in a system. Which could evapourate and render the idea of value meaningless. I don't think this is…
So the other way to say this is that companies are just as real as anything else in our society.
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#129This doesn't go far enough. The only thing that maintains the value of any asset (or currency) is the collective belief in that asset or currency. Put another way: there is an inescapable component of trust in every asset. Crypto in any form doesn't solve the trust problem other than a very narrow slice because as soon as you interact with anything outside of the blockchain, you're adding trust. Even on the blockchai…
Hello jmyeet! Unfortunately, I believe this statement, as you have given it, is untrue.
I hear it often, as it is continually and frequently asserted by crypto enthusiasts (and I am not suggesting you are one of those).
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For assets, value is grounded in utility (whether to do some useful function, generate some feeling, etc).
Asset price, on the other hand, could be almost anything depending on supply/demand and may be affected by beliefs at times.
It's important to disambiguate price and value. I can buy a superb pair of shoes from a desperate seller for $1, but that doesn't make their 'value' $1 to me or other people. Value can be personal, it can also be societal i.e. averaged over many people.
Indeed if price and value were the same thing, there would be no buyers or sellers, because you would have little reason to go to the effort of swapping two things of identical value to you.
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For currency, specifically, national currency where you are living in that nation - the value (and relative price) of a unit of a currency is grounded in taxation enforced by, well... force, by the state.
Taxation generates continual demand for units of currency regardless of individual or collective beliefs.
And in trust in the currency, again, is enforced by... force, by the state. Which prevents unlimited supply (by random people), again, regardless of individual or collective beliefs.
Thus, both supply and demand for the units of currency are set by the state, and supply/demand is what it takes to generate a stable price and mandatory use.
I note you mention trust, and 'backed by...' and 'might'.
However, discussing currency in terms of only trust and not in terms of taxation, misses half the argument. Both halves are essential for the argument to make sense.
Absent a mandatory minimum demand, control of supply of currency (and trust in that control) is meaningless.
In computing terms, you can see taxation + limited supply as a technique to 'bootstrap' an initial price for a currency without needing any shared or individual beliefs at all. It also underwrites the price in the long term, again, without any need for beliefs.
None of this is to say that a currency can't have its price/value shifted around by collective beliefs once bootstrapping / underwriting is in place. Of course it can. But what maintains, inescapably, a certain minimum price (your own words: maintain, inescapable), is enforced taxation.
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Going back to the price of assets. Well, you can believe all you want about, say, oil, and your whole country may have a collective belief, or even the planet, but since there is X units of oil needed and Y units of oil in supply, the price will be set by ongoing auction as always, or you can freeze/be stuck in your garage/factory shutdown. Supply and demand. Beliefs can affect supply and demand, of course. But supply and demand are primary, beliefs are secondary and they sit alongside necessity and physical reality.
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(Finally - again without wishing to imply you are a crypto enthusiast - a lot of crypto enthusiasts seem to imagine that mathematics has a similar 'force' to states, 'there can only be X coins', ignoring that a) chain algorithms/limits can be changed by widespread consensus b) no one is forcing anyone to use the crypto at all i.e. no physically enforced taxation c) it's trivial to substitute a chain with a duplicate chain (again consensus), as e.g. dogecoin proved rather effectively. They also invariably neglect the issue of needing 'mandatory demand' via taxation. I would speculate this is because the essential need for tax in currency systems, completely undermines the ponzi's disguise as a currency.)
(I use the word 'ponzi' casually here; technically ponzis are zero-sum, whereas crypto is worse - negative-sum, especially for the environment).
Re: Algorithmic stablecoins are provably impossible without continuous funding
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
I cannot remember where I read this, but it was a view that basically the mere concept of a "company" is a collective fiction that we all believe in. As are nations, laws, etc etc. The idea that "tesla" is an entity one can interact with. That this "tesla" thing has value in and of itself. They're derived from beliefs in a system. Which could evapourate and render the idea of value meaningless. I don't think this is…
It's useful from the standpoint it was explained in Sapiens (like how the fiction of the LLC allowed certain innovations) but not so much in this context. You can believe in the corporation or not, the important thing is that you won't go personally bankrupt if your company does, if the relevant 'belief system' aka the US judicial system evaporates, we have bigger problems to worry about than well, anything else in t…