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24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

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Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#121

Post by kisielk »

Lukeas14 wrote: post #80
kisielk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook could make data removable by users if they engineered their site to allow that. The problem is that they haven't, and it appears they've in fact done the opposite. We need data protection laws like this to put the onus on the service providers to make giving users control of their data a priority.

Deleting data in a complicated system is not at all a trivial task as data integrity can easily be impacted. So Facebook's excuse that they can't delete data at their scale is probably not just PR speak. For them there is no downside to keeping data besides a minority of their userbase complaining. Meanwhile the downside to deleting data is potentially huge and a mistake would be nonrecoverable. I wouldn't expect the…

I agree that deleting data is probably difficult from a data integrity standpoint. However, unless being able to delete data is made a priority the situation is not going to improve. It's a more general problem and certainly not specific to Facebook but unless there is some motivator I don't think a whole lot of engineering effort is going to be put in to it by anyone.

From a technology standpoint it seems it's more desirable to just keep throwing storage at the problem and spend time working on ways to store and manage even more data. Data is valuable after all, so the incentive is there to accumulate and process as much of it as possible. That's exactly why we need some form of external stimulus (eg: laws) to force people to work on the problem of how can we be getting rid of data when we need to without breaking everything.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#122

Post by pyre »

Locke1689 wrote: post #117
pyre wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a filesystem, the data isn't scrubbed but it's marked as space that can be overwritten. While the completely removal doesn't happen at once, it's slated for complete removal at some undetermined time in the future. In the case of Facebook, they are making a conscious decision that they do not want this data to ever disappear. I doubt very much that there are policies to remove data marked as 'deleted' after a set…

To what extent is this just a property of Paxos that lacking delete synchronicity can cause data unavailability or differing levels of data availability? Moreover, how would affect the Paxos read/write synchronicity? Would you have to disable read caching on the geographic layer? I'm sorry but this seems like a huge ignorance on the part of you on how DSes are designed. These issues are important.

So there is a way to synchronize data creation and data updates, but not data deletion? Really?

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#123

Post by pyre »

sixtofour wrote: post #119
pyre wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the > number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given > station. That seems lame. That number is highly anonymous. How does a statement like "between 8am and 9am 250 people boarded the subway, and 130 people exited the subway" affect a person's privacy?

If it's lame, then someone who wants to count must instead throw up his hands in exasperation as they obey the law and don't count. Until a few years ago it was illegal to sell liquor on Sunday in Colorado. That was lame, but I never saw a liquor store open on Sunday. If any did, they'd probably get fairly good public support and letters to the editor in favor, but they would still lose their liquor license.

I was criticizing the law (or at least an example of how a law is being applied) that you used as an example, because it seems to be that it goes far beyond just protecting personal privacy.

You seem to be stating in response that the law must be followed while it is in place. I'm unsure what your driving point is as I wasn't even advocating civil disobedience of said law.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#124

Post by jhferris3 »

So, I'm going to make a statement that I think is important for anyone reading anything on the internet.

WHAT IS THE PROOF! (also known as 'consider the author', 'read the article', etc)

Now I can't say with certainty that any of these claims are false or true, but it occurs to me that a lot of these claims are based on what facebook MIGHT be doing with your data. I decided to take a look at the complaint and attachments for the shadow profiles case, I don't see any evidence that these shadow profiles exist, just that there is the possibility that they exist.

And for those that will inevitably say that proof isn't necessary, that means you don't trust facebook. If thats the case, there is nothing they can do to prove to you what they're doing is legitimate short of open sourcing their entire stack (and even then, you must trust that what they're running == the source they give you). So either trust that what they're saying is true, find evidence that they're doing something they aren't supposed to, or stop using the service entirely.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#125

Post by 0x12 »

dantheman wrote: post #116
beforebeta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked video (in german) explains this. Apparently Facebook has a registered HQ in Ireland (presumably - as someone mentioned in another thread - for tax purposes). Since it is a registered business in Ireland, it is subject to all Irish and many applicable European laws (one of which is data privacy). The 24-year-old Individual feels it's against his data privacy rights that Facebook retains deleted messages. Pe…

Watch all the tech companies leave Ireland due draconian European laws. I don't understand, why all law must be proactive. Let people try and experiment, let norms evolve. Why must we prelegislate things, wait until facebook or someone else starts doing horrible things before passing a law.

Tough choice. Pay tax or better consumer laws.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#126

Post by randallsquared »

0x12 wrote: post #112
anigbrowl wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In July 2009, civil society groups opposed the implementation of intelligent advertising LCD screens in a Parisian subway station.[163] These screens not only broadcast messages but can also count the number of people passing by and measure the time spent looking at the screen thanks to a face scanning sensor. Since these actions, the French data protection Authority, the CNIL, has issued a report considering that th…

And that was before large scale facerecognition software that could be employed to determine not only how many people are walking by the device but also who. Now doing this in real time with a large crowd is still not technically feasible but at some point we will probably cross that line. Good to know there is at least one country where you'll be safe from that.

Good to know there is at least one country where you'll be safe from that.

Well, until it gets so cheap that there's no way to know whose glasses or contacts are recording and compiling information about you as part of their lifelog. This sort of thing is like the tide coming in: legislation against it can only ultimately be effective by severe restrictions on allowed technologies for the people of the country.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#127

Post by 0x12 »

randallsquared wrote: post #126
0x12 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that was before large scale facerecognition software that could be employed to determine not only how many people are walking by the device but also who. Now doing this in real time with a large crowd is still not technically feasible but at some point we will probably cross that line. Good to know there is at least one country where you'll be safe from that.

Good to know there is at least one country where you'll be safe from that. Well, until it gets so cheap that there's no way to know whose glasses or contacts are recording and compiling information about you as part of their lifelog. This sort of thing is like the tide coming in: legislation against it can only ultimately be effective by severe restrictions on allowed technologies for the people of the country.

Hm. This comment reads like something straight out of an SF novel and yet I can't shake the feeling that it is just around the corner. Interesting times indeed. Thank you for opening my eyes a bit further. Gargoyles seemed like a fun thing when Neal Stephenson wrote about it and Steve Mann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann) was experimenting in that direction.

I never expected it to possibly hit the mainstream this quickly though, and especially not with some of the possibilities that you are hinting at.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#128

Post by alexgartrell »

jhferris3 wrote: post #124

So, I'm going to make a statement that I think is important for anyone reading anything on the internet. WHAT IS THE PROOF! (also known as 'consider the author', 'read the article', etc) Now I can't say with certainty that any of these claims are false or true, but it occurs to me that a lot of these claims are based on what facebook MIGHT be doing with your data. I decided to take a look at the complaint and attachm…

Disclaimer, jack works with me at Facebook, so he's going to be biased (as will I). However, it is true that there appears to be a circular dependency between speculation and outrage here, and that probably isn't the greatest thing in the world. All I can do is tell you to keep looking for evidence (seriously, keep us honest), and we will earn your trust again some day.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#130

Post by sixtofour »

pyre wrote: post #123
sixtofour wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's lame, then someone who wants to count must instead throw up his hands in exasperation as they obey the law and don't count. Until a few years ago it was illegal to sell liquor on Sunday in Colorado. That was lame, but I never saw a liquor store open on Sunday. If any did, they'd probably get fairly good public support and letters to the editor in favor, but they would still lose their liquor license.

I was criticizing the law (or at least an example of how a law is being applied) that you used as an example, because it seems to be that it goes far beyond just protecting personal privacy. You seem to be stating in response that the law must be followed while it is in place. I'm unsure what your driving point is as I wasn't even advocating civil disobedience of said law.

I'm referring back to Facebook, who would probably like to not follow the privacy laws if they aren't convenient.
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