Clairnote: An alternative music notation system • Hacker News Board

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#121

Post by scrozier » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

chki wrote: post #120

scrozier wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. I haven't thought a lot about it, but I still don't see how this new system is radically easier to learn. Looks like I have to be concerned with notes partially on lines, an irregular staff, two notes occupying the same "space" on the staff, etc. Then there are clefs with numbers...now I have to remember what "number" octave I'm in. And for piano, you lose the white key/black key distinction, which is ob…

> you lose the white key/black key distinction I'm not sure what I think about this new system but the "black key = accidental" association is probably not very helpful to anybody playing on/after an intermediate level as there are cases where accidentals mean white keys (for example f flat or g double sharp). It might be helpful if you're a beginner though.

While we certainly run into Fbs or G##s, they are relatively rare. I don't think they undo the visual cue of seeing G# and knowing that's a black key. But you might be right. After all, if we're playing in the key of E, G#s are not notated other than in the key signature (and some other exceptions that don't really matter here). So yeah, maybe accidentals black keys isn't such a big deal.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#122

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #107

_moof wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. If I had a dollar for every "new way of doing XYZ" made by someone inexperienced who just doesn't want to learn the way we're all doing XYZ just fine...

Isn't that the reactionary response to all innovation, such as in tech? 'That's not the way we do it.'

[deleted]

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#123

Post by projektfu » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

rawling wrote: post #33

I couldn't figure out the justification for middle C being on a ledger line, and then the D above it being higher up, but on the higher of two ledger lines.

It follows the same pattern in the middle of the staff. Between the two bottom lines is another whole step represented by a ledger line.

I thought it was odd too but I can see how it makes sense, given that they want to unambiguously represent half steps.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#124

Post by _moof » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #107

_moof wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. If I had a dollar for every "new way of doing XYZ" made by someone inexperienced who just doesn't want to learn the way we're all doing XYZ just fine...

Isn't that the reactionary response to all innovation, such as in tech? 'That's not the way we do it.'

It rhymes with it, sure. The key difference is that the phenomenon I'm talking about comes from people who haven't taken the time to understand the problem, or they come up with "solutions" that have already been tried and found not to work. The reactionary, conversely, is simply afraid: of change, that they won't be able to learn the new thing, of not being important because they aren't the one who came up with it, of losing status gained from being an expert in the old thing, etc.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#125

Post by scrozier » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #85

chrismorgan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then? I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long. If simplified notations are essen…

The distinction between reading music and sight reading aside (others have addressed it), learning to read music is honestly just rote practice. In the grand scheme of things, it's really not that hard. To play simple songs (all within one octave, say) from music on a staff on an instrument, you really only have to learn twelve associations of positions on the staff to a key on the keyboard or a fingering or an embouchure and a fingering, etc. It's far easier than learning a language or a programming language or the rules of hockey. From there, it's just extending those associations higher and lower, and learning other aspects of music notation, like note durations. It's just standard repetitive learning. No magic or particular talent is involved.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#126

Post by Toutouxc » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:40 PM UTC

abhorrence wrote: post #113

Toutouxc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I like about Dodeka is not their notation, but the Dodeka keyboard. I'm learning to play the piano now and the amount of stupid unnecessary complexity stemming from the fact that we've designed the keyboard to make playing in a single specific key easier and fuck everything else, is hurting my programmer brain. That, and the fact that small-handed male players like me (and like 80 % of women) are gate-kept forev…

I’m curious, which key do you think is the easiest to play on piano? I’ve found that newer folks tend to prefer keys with fewer accidental: C, G, F, D and Bb Whereas there is a tendency for more experienced players to prefer keys with many flats: Db, Ab, and so on… And (appropriately for the submissions topic), I think lot of this preference comes down to the fact that we tend to learn keys like C first, because the…

> which key do you think is the easiest to play on piano?

Sorry, "easiest" may not be the best word. C major is THE key of the piano keyboard and playing in C major is so easy because all of the non-exotic chords (sorry, I don't know the english nomenclature) are played on the same kind of keys and they have identical, predictable shapes.

On a keyboard like Dodeka, all chords in all keys have predictable shapes, because why shouldn't they? You should be able to transpose any song by simply moving your hands a little to the side, anything else is just bad UI.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#127

Post by Jeff_Brown » Wed, May 04, 2022, 9:54 PM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #119

reikonomusha wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Western classical music, there's a lot of emphasis put on Urtexts (scores that contain exactly the information the composer wrote and no more), composer intent, distinguished voices (stem up v down), diatonic scales (enharmonic choices matter), etc. This would make it nontrivial to simply switch notations. In some sense it's like saying "finally, I can read Don Quixote in whatever language I want because…

IMHO that's a very bad example because there's a big loss of information with Google Translate (you wouldn't get the Urtext when translating back), but there isn't with Clairnote.

Yeah, if the original score is digitally encoded such that everything really is a first-class citizen (and not, say, a GIF of some scribbles) -- a very big if -- but if so, it's not obvious that any information has to be lost in translation to Clarinote, nor that Clairnote would impose any additional information. If you want to know the scale you could encode the key signature, which Clairnote seems to make possible, just unnecessary.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#128

Post by MandieD » Wed, May 04, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #118

john61 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does one learn to actually read music, then? The same way millions of musicions before you. By reading music, training, time and patience.

Please don’t take this personally, but this isn’t very helpful advice. I’ve learned how to do many things in my life, and I’ve come to appreciate that it’s very easy to practice the wrong thing and never make any progress. Another way to phrase my question might be, “What and how should I practice to develop my music reading skills?”

I can only give advice for “one note at a time” instruments like the flute or trumpet: practice sight reading children’s songs you know (and therefore can tell if you’ve made a huge mistake) - sight reading, not memorizing! As you get more proficient at reading those, slowly choose harder things - melody lines from a familiar church hymnal are ideal for this. If you make mistakes, finish the phrase, then repeat it, but here, you should be going for quantity, not quality.

Treat this as a separate part of your practice.

I would imagine it’s similar for piano or guitar.

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#129

Post by MandieD » Wed, May 04, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

_moof wrote: post #103

LegionMammal978 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe a string-instrument player could comment on usefulness for string music? Speaking from my experience playing violin (as an ameteur), players generally practice their scales until the finger positions become muscle memory. This way, the key provides the entire note position -> finger position mapping, and accidentals simply become half-step modifications. Since the scales would need to be learned anyway to pla…

Can concur as a bass player. Tell me to play (for example) a B and without even thinking, my hand will move to the second fret on the A string. Put a flat sign on it and I just move one fret down. I also know the "shapes" of intervals though, and they are constant. A half-step is always one fret, a whole step is always two. A minor third is a minor third is a minor third: one finger on fret N of string M, the other f…

I pulled my flute out of its case after over five years, and within minutes was playing all my scales, and able to play the melody lines out of a hymnal. My tone was awful, and my lips got tired long before my hands.

To this day, I still associate flute fingerings with music I read for singing.

Or piano, which gets messy…

Re: Clairnote: An alternative music notation system

#130

Post by InitialLastName » Wed, May 04, 2022, 10:16 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #85

chrismorgan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve gained that impression from every single alternative notation system that’s come up here (a new one comes up every year or two). They have a habit of solving problems that just aren’t problems for experienced readers, while causing problems for experienced readers. (They may also solve some real problems, but when they do, they always involve compromises. Inconsistent octave positioning on the staff is a problem…

How does one learn to actually read music, then? I have been learning to play the keyboard for about a year and I find the layout of the keys to make a lot of sense for figuring out things like scales and chords. When I was in high school I never really learned to sight-read a staff, it was always a struggle for me and probably what turned me off to playing an instrument for so long. If simplified notations are essen…

For all of its strengths as an instrument, piano has some drawbacks for learning to read traditional staff, as there isn't an (obvious-to-the-uninitiated) differentiation between notes or across octaves (you just sit in front of a wide line of keys). I think I learned to read first on a recorder, where you can develop a more intuitive link between fingerings and notes (especially as the first note you learn is the B dead in the center of the treble staff).

I'd suggest a few paths to learning the note positioning:

- If you're already comfortable with note locations on the keyboard, don't be afraid of the line/space mnemonics. If they get you to where you're making ID's faster in the parts of the staff where your hands normally live, it can make life much easier, and you can easily extend from there. There are really only ~26 note/staff associations to learn that will cover the majority of the music you'll see day to day (with octave shifts) and knowing a few will make the rest come more easily.

- Similarly (and I think this is the way piano is taught to beginners, but it's been a long time) you can make a lot of progress by starting your thumbs on middle C, which is dead between the staves and operating from there to play simple music. As you play and read more music, you'll find yourself starting to recognize the locations of more notes across the staff, until they all come to you intuitively.