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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

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Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#121

Post by dahfizz »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #97
dahfizz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't forsee a transcontinental water pipe going over well. I, for one, refuse to subsidize people who want to live in a dessert with my own water table. People should live in areas that can support human life.

Someone else had an interesting idea: We could set up a transcontinental pipeline to the desert, and in exchange we would receive their solar power.

Well, first of all, most of North America already has an interconnected grid. So if CA has surplus solar generation, we already get it today.

If we wanted to build a dedicated line so that only the places pumping water to CA were getting the electricity, I am skeptical that the economics work out. I'm sure CA is sunnier than the average east coast state, but enough to cancel out all transmission losses and the higher cost of operating a plant in CA?

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#122

Post by HWR_14 »

DannyBee wrote: post #18

It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…

> It is politically untenable to fix this, as it requires not trying to grow water-hungry crops in what is literally a desert

It doesn't even requiring changing the crops you grow! Instead of watering pecan trees by spraying water all around them, you can use more precise aiming and distribution to get the water right to the roots. You can save a huge percentage of water just by being more careful instead of "if I flood this plain with water, eventually some will get where I want it to go."

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#123

Post by deaddodo »

ece wrote: post #100
deaddodo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of the population in California doesn't live in a desert. They live in chaparral, temperate coniferous forest and mountainous biomes/climates. It's a moot point regardless as the California Water Plan is probably one of the most extensive in the world, beaten likely only by Israel. There is plenty of water for the populace and supporting services; and most of the populated desert regions (the IE par…

Why aren't there MPG-like standards for farming, and if we had such standards, how much water would be saved? Maybe there are irrigation standards and I just don't know.

The aforementioned industries have pushed heavily for "water rights" under the guise of residential accessibility, artificially deflating their cost and forcing the population to subsidize their usage.

That's like asking why does the government take federal tax dollars to subsidize corn fields in Nebraska despite massive surpluses? Because those businesses then use those profits to continue to lobby for those under the guise of "jobs" and commercial welfare.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#124

Post by bradleyjg »

pjc50 wrote: post #31
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/

Which species and ecosystems are you proposing eliminating? ("environmental use" really means "leave it in the river"; reducing environmental use to zero means making rivers never reach the sea because you've extracted 100% of the water.)

Dams dramatically increase evaporation. Pull down the dams on the Colorado and other rivers and you’ll decrease that 50%.

It’ll be good for fish, and species that depend on fish, too.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#125

Post by SamBam »

tablespoon wrote: post #90
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems.

> Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems. How so?…

An uncovered pool loses thousands of gallons of water a month due to evaporation. More so in a bit and dry climate.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#126

Post by tejohnso »

eldaisfish wrote: post #76
tejohnso wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is politically untenable to fix this I believe this statement is applicable to the climate crisis in general. Recent reviews of 2015 Paris agreement progress indicate abysmal performance. We've been using resources in such a way that we don't have to consider their true costs, and we've been doing so for generations. I don't think we'll see very significant change until it is forced upon us. We'll then make reac…

Personally, what i find aggravating is the insistence of many that consumption is the answer. Electric vehicles and their associated manufacturing inputs combined with power grid upgrades will be the solution. No. The solution is to work together as a tribe, not as individuals. Instead of personal electric vehicles, we should be electrifying logistics and improving public transit. Sadly, those who will pay the price…

> The solution is to work together as a tribe, not as individuals.

Agreed. It's not about continuing our way of life and maintaining the same mentality, but with alternative tech. The fix for this requires leadership and cooperation and significant culture shift. At a global level. Unfortunately we're not even close to where we need to be socially or diplomatically. And yes, those who are least able to affect change, and who are least culpable, are already paying the price.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#127

Post by MauranKilom »

bombcar wrote: post #23
bluGill wrote: post #20

In Iowa we have the opposite problem too much rain. We are in the last week to plant corn before seeing reduced yields.

We need the transcontinental pipeline to push water to where it needs to be. Or agriculture needs to move to where the water is.

This concept is commonly called "river". Except they go downhill from the rockies, not up. It would be just a tad ambitious to somehow build a second Mississippi but in reverse.

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#128

Post by twofornone »

lokar wrote: post #96
onphonenow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. You can look at this from an economics standpoint as well. We have run out of FREE water. If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage. Even a small tax of $0.01 per gallon would be a start in this space. We have exploded population and if you look at water projects (that actually deal with supply) have not done the same over 50 years or w…

The residents see it differently. They have been farming there for several generations and it's been mostly fine, the land is very productive when irrigated. The fact that it all depends on a massive public subsidy (both cash and water) from the rest of the state is ignored by then. They focus on arguments like "stop dumping water in the ocean" - eg make all the river run dry before reaching the coast, and "this is w…

Do we even grow a sizeable proportion of staple crops in the western US? Isn't the majority of water going to crops like almonds (as opposed to grains)?

Edit: looks like the bulk of land at least in california is allocated to hay production, with tomatoes in a somewhat distant second. https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverv...

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#129

Post by newbamboo »

formerkrogemp wrote: post #64
turtledove wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ecologically devastate the Pacific Northwest so we can continue to be wasteful with water is a heck of a take.

Thirsty folks from California and the Southwest wanting more water to be piped in to feed their water intensive crops and lawns in the desert. I'm sure that'll go down well in outlying regions. Maybe change in meteorological patterns and population levels hitting critical mass without the attendant infrastructure are bad for water levels. Aquifers are depleted. Rainfall is reduced. There's no more snowmelt to bank on…

“folks from California and the Southwest wanting more water”

People don’t complain about Floridians or iowaians. It’s always the brown bodies from California “driving up prices” and “drinking all the water.” California is a dog whistle for anti-immigrant viewpoints. “Folks from California.” We know who you mean when you say that. Immigrants and other “water drinkers.”

Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet

#130

Post by wiredfool »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #74
danaris wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think there should absolutely be limits of some kind, if the water need in places like California could be spread out over the water table of, say, everything else west of the Mississippi, I imagine it could make a big difference to the water-poor places without running the risk of depleting the water-rich places enough for anyone to even notice. Of course, that's assuming that such a pipeline network would b…

The nuclear power + desalination plant combo seems like a no-brainer to me in particular. Even if it meant sticking them in Oregon or Washington (for reduced seismic risk) and piping the fresh water down to Cali.

Nope. Washington/Oregon has the same or greater seismic risk to California due to the offshore Juan de Fuca Subduction zone. Less common, but much bigger earthquakes, and generally we're overdue for one. (return period, low hundreds of years. Last one, Jan 26, 1700, magnitude 8.7-9.2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1700_Cascadia_earthquake)
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