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A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

military.com

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Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#121

Post by hedora »

kzrdude wrote: post #105
trelane wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also because full automation means pilots, so no certifications for any aircraft types, let alone the same one. So there would be no need to force the plane to be a "737".

Why not? Full certification of automatic piloting of a new plane type might have run into the same kind of situation - that you want to "preserve the plane type" to get to market quicker with the product. This is conjecture since we're nowhere near this yet?

"Preserve the plane type" definitely delayed the 737MAX and only served to save pilot training costs. With no pilots, even that (dubious) advantage would be gone.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#122

Post by hedora »

tempestn wrote: post #70
sandworm101 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sully is spoken about, but not always in the best light. There is a line of though that an automated system could well have landed that aircraft. Other lines of thought blame reliance on checklists, that a quick abandonment of checklists might have been more effective. But imho the unsung hero of that incident remains the airliner, designed by human engineers, that was able to survive landing on water and remain aflo…

Those checklists exist for a reason. Far, far more incidents and accidents are caused by ignoring them than by relying on them. These planes are sufficiently complex that pilots can't come close to holding all possible contingencies in their heads; the checklists are designed specifically to allow them to react appropriately in any foreseeable situation. I'm not saying it's impossible that if they'd ignored the check…

I wonder why new planes are so complex.

Computers make it technologically feasible to simplify things, but also to make them more complicated. Big organizations always inject as much complexity as possible into engineering projects.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#125

Post by girvo »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #88

There's as similar vibro-tactile device, which is a belt you wear and always vibrates strongest in the direction of north, and over time the user would learn or improve their internal navigation. A quick search reveals a company, feelSpace, tried to bring this idea market for the purposes of navigation: https://newatlas.com/feelspace-navigation-belt/43571/ If I knew, I probably would have bought the belt for learning…

The whole idea reminds me of those people who got magnets inserted underneath their skin on their fingers so the tactile response allowed them to feel magnetic fields. It’s neat how our brains seem to rewire and adapt to new sensory input like that

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#126

Post by alar44 »

tintor wrote: post #14
nvahalik wrote: post #8

This makes me wonder. I get car-sick when I'm a passenger in a car. Sometimes it takes an hour. Sometimes 10 minutes. However, if I'm riding in a convertible with the top down... I haven't gotten car-sick yet. Is the wind "fixing" the problem with my brain?

Motion sickness is body's way to protect itself against eating hallucinogens by mistake. Large mismatch between what your inner ear is feeling about your motion, and what your eyes perceive as your motion, imply possible hallucinogens, so your body is trying to make you throw them up. Humans haven't evolved riding in vehicles. Interior of car is not moving much relative to you, but your inner ear feels movement.

This is one evolutionary explanation, but hasn't been proven, and is not widely accepted. I don't buy it, as by the time you're feeling effects from ingesting something, you're already 45 minutes to an hour in. Additionally, our taste buds and nose do a great job of warning us about things we shouldn't be eating.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#127

Post by 6581 »

hedora wrote: post #122
tempestn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those checklists exist for a reason. Far, far more incidents and accidents are caused by ignoring them than by relying on them. These planes are sufficiently complex that pilots can't come close to holding all possible contingencies in their heads; the checklists are designed specifically to allow them to react appropriately in any foreseeable situation. I'm not saying it's impossible that if they'd ignored the check…

I wonder why new planes are so complex. Computers make it technologically feasible to simplify things, but also to make them more complicated. Big organizations always inject as much complexity as possible into engineering projects.

> I wonder why new planes are so complex.

They're not. Older planes required more personnel (flight engineers, navigators, etc.). Newer planes are vastly easier to operate with just a captain and first officer.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#128

Post by jkingsman »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #88

There's as similar vibro-tactile device, which is a belt you wear and always vibrates strongest in the direction of north, and over time the user would learn or improve their internal navigation. A quick search reveals a company, feelSpace, tried to bring this idea market for the purposes of navigation: https://newatlas.com/feelspace-navigation-belt/43571/ If I knew, I probably would have bought the belt for learning…

It's worth noting that, anecdotally, your sense of direction becomes WAY worse when you stop using the device. It seems that your brain encodes it as a piece of input to its navigation and deemphasizes more instinctive way finding, which hurts you when you no longer have the input.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#129

Post by jamiek88 »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #68
fsckboy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proprioception is heavily based on the flow of air against our skin and hair. feeling sensations on the skin doesn't tell you where the skin is...?

It does, the air flow going downward on your skin tells you your arm went up. I recall my arm being very numb, I had to poke myself strongly to feel it, I could move it but I had no idea where it went without looking at it, multiple times I was surprised to find it in a spot I didn't know it was. As I recovered sensation in my skin I regained proprioception gradually. Really trippy experience.

I once woke up, sober, from a night at home alone watching tv, with a strange person in my bed.

Their arm was resting on my stomach above the sheets. I could see it. It was terrifying.

I freaked out and tried to throw that arm off me when I realized it was my own. I’d slept on it, gone numb and my sleepy brain considered it someone else’s arm.

Re: A naked skydive inspired a way to keep pilots oriented in flight

#130

Post by Terretta »

kzrdude wrote: post #105
trelane wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also because full automation means pilots, so no certifications for any aircraft types, let alone the same one. So there would be no need to force the plane to be a "737".

Why not? Full certification of automatic piloting of a new plane type might have run into the same kind of situation - that you want to "preserve the plane type" to get to market quicker with the product. This is conjecture since we're nowhere near this yet?

> nowhere near this yet

Is that sure?

Autonomous cars are hard because of “surprise”. Other drivers, kids, bicycles, randomness intersecting the street that has to be dealt with.

By and large, aircraft have the way cleared for them by ATC, and objects that may intersect with them tend to be on a path that is neither “came out of nowhere” nor erratic (UFOs aside!). Weather is a challenge, but autopilot deals with weather already. Arguably there’s much less surprise for a sky bus than a road bus, and arguably the fact it’s a big airliner instead of a crossover SUV doesn’t make it particularly harder for a machine.

TL;DR: Planes seem “nearer” than cars and some cars pretend to be automatic already.

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