Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#121

Post by rgmarker » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:37 PM UTC

martimarkov wrote: post #86

MrRiddle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing NATO expansion in Ukraine and arming them with hi-tech weaponry.

I think you forget that Ukraine has the right of agency and has the right to choose to join a defensive union. I'm also finding it hard to get any concrete examples of offensive actions by NATO. So far every single one seems to be okay with Russia (given they didn't veto it in the UN security council).

Suppose the following reversed situation:

- There is still a Warsaw Pact.

- An Orange Revolution happens in Canada in 2014, backed by KGB neocon equivalents of Nuland/Graham.

- A Russia friendly regime is installed in Canada in 2014.

- Canada has regions with large U.S. populations.

- Canada keeps pushing for Warsaw Pact membership.

- At a security conference in Munich in 2022, Canada's Russia friendly prime minister mentions that he could acquire nuclear weapons.

Would you say that the U.S. would likely invade according to the Monroe doctrine? Or would you say that Canada has the right of agency?

None of this is excusing Russia, but disregarding these issues leads to escalation. I'm astonished that the NATO hardliners apparently think that their policies have been a success (they are of course a success if the goal was a proxy war that tests the strength of Russia's military in the first place).

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#122

Post by diskapital » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:38 PM UTC

beberlei wrote: post #105

LAC-Tech wrote: post #29

This doesn't make sense to me. Can i get an explanation? The German state seized a local German branch of the Russian Gazprom company. In order to secure its energy supplies... which come from Russia. Are they in essence capturing some reserves?

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company.

Is that illegal?

I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West".

It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want.

When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial example would be Mossadegh nationalizing APOC), then the response we take it is pretty severe (often involving significant amounts of violence) and we portray ourselves as being "morally" rightous, often with the very same "rule of law" claim.

Just something I like to think about in this scenario. Not trying to push any agenda.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#123

Post by ivan_gammel » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:40 PM UTC

throwaway48375 wrote: post #112

PinguTS wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends on how much has been sourced locally before and how much has been sourced from the US. Like buns and meat and so could be sourced locally. But spice (mixtures) may have been imported and the mixture recipe is locally unknown.

It can't be that hard to reverse engineer a spice mixture in 2022.

It is not even necessary, since local tastes are different and you need to adapt the recipe.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#124

Post by jaywalk » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:41 PM UTC

nbadg wrote: post #70

johannes1234321 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That company owned pipelines and storage tanks within Germany, thus controls the flow of gas after reaching Germany.

To expand on this: much of the distribution infrastructure within Germany is owned by Gazprom. For example, there's a very large natural gas storage capacity within Germany, but a significant portion of that is owned by, you guessed it, Gazprom. There's broad consensus that, if all of the storage infrastructure were topped up, Germany would be able to make it through _next_ winter reasonably well, even if Russia stop…

> yet another strong indication that the invasion was a deliberate Russian aggression planned well in advance.

Are there people out there who have doubts about this? Regardless of any opinions on the rationale behind it, it's very clearly something that was planned in advance. I didn't think that was something that was up for debate.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#125

Post by dotancohen » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:41 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #117

Despite germany's strong dislike for east europeans I am glad to see they are taking measures to help their allies. This is a positive move in the right direction, I hope we figure a way to help germany solve it's dependency of russia in due time, as indeed their economy needs protection.

And what of the rest of the Western world's dependency on Middle Eastern oil? That was already weaponized in 1973 yet nobody seems to have learned from it.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#126

Post by belorn » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:42 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #117

Despite germany's strong dislike for east europeans I am glad to see they are taking measures to help their allies. This is a positive move in the right direction, I hope we figure a way to help germany solve it's dependency of russia in due time, as indeed their economy needs protection.

Why is protecting the economy more important than stopping the funding of the Russian army and their military invasion?

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#127

Post by zirror » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:42 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #117

Despite germany's strong dislike for east europeans I am glad to see they are taking measures to help their allies. This is a positive move in the right direction, I hope we figure a way to help germany solve it's dependency of russia in due time, as indeed their economy needs protection.

German here: We don't dislike eastern europeans at all, at least not on any society wide level. Of course, there are exceptions. We do dislike backslides into authoritarianism in governance, like in Hungary (who's Victor Orban declared 'illiberal democracy' [1]).

1: https://verfassungsblog.de/illiberal-democracy-beyond-hungar...

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#128

Post by egeozcan » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:43 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #117

Despite germany's strong dislike for east europeans I am glad to see they are taking measures to help their allies. This is a positive move in the right direction, I hope we figure a way to help germany solve it's dependency of russia in due time, as indeed their economy needs protection.

> germany's strong dislike for east europeans

I'm from as Eastern Europe as it gets (European side of Istanbul) and people seem to like me here. Why do you think that they dislike East Europeans?

I mean, Germans don't seem to like the current government of the country where I'm from, but for good reasons and I certainly share their dislike!

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#129

Post by rgmarker » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:43 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #59

MrRiddle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing NATO expansion in Ukraine and arming them with hi-tech weaponry.

Ukraine wasn’t armed with hi-tech weaponry until Russia started invading in 2014 and then continued being a bad actor which culminated in January/February 2022 delivery of said weapons at the last second. NATO expansion is a convenient excuse but fails for two reasons: 1. Baltics are closer to Moscow than Ukraine and right on the border. 2. It is widely acknowledged that the primary driver for Putin is not NATO expan…

1. The Baltics joined NATO when Russia was still in disarray and aren't as important strategically. Russia tried to join NATO itself after that but was rebuffed.

2. This was primarily for domestic consumption and the West picked it up in February/March together with the notion that Putin had gone mad. Hardly anyone talks about either of these theories any longer.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#130

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 12:44 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #74

archerx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wonder if the Greens are actually funded by petrol companies because everything they do seems to benefit them in the end. In Switzerland the Greens are trying to be as dumb as the German ones.

But in Switzerland the population voted against nuclear energy, and with that we "the people" are as stupid as the green party, right?

People can be easily scared into doing very stupid things long term. Fear is by far the easiest way to manipulate, look at brexit, Trump etc.

Swiss are generally quite smart but have emotions just like everybody else, even if it may not seem so upon first encounter. From what I recall they already buy LNG mainly from US so at least this part is not so bad re current situation.