Fed takes over AIG • Hacker News Board

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#121

Post by mseebach » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:48 AM UTC

jrmurad wrote: post #43

sabat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancer. Diabetes. Yadda yadda. Do you know how many people are not insured and cannot afford insurance? ("Go to the emergency room" is not a health plan.) Do you know how many people with serious illnesses are turned down by their own insurance companies every year? I'm not saying socialism is an automatic answer, but it'd better than this mess.

I'm not saying you're wrong that socialism is better than this mess but I will say that capitalism is better than this mess and better than socialism too. Having health insurance provided by the State (i.e. you through your tax dollars after several layers of corruption and bureaucratic waste) does not guarantee quality of care. A competitive free market is more likely to develop better medicine.

I think it's important to clarify that there are two layers in this. Paying for health care and providing health care.

IMO, there's a good case to be made for a baseline of mandatory basic healthcare (i.e. no dying in the streets, no choosing food this week over a visit to the doctor), which should be tax-funded for families below a certain income threshold.

The other end of the stick is the hospitals and doctors themselves, and there is absolutely nothing that suggests that they become more efficient or cheaper, if they are made public employees. Quite the contrary, I'd argue.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#122

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 10:59 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #109

netcan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the long run we're all dead.

You and Mr. Keynes, maybe. Ray Kurzweil, no.

At least that's his planning assumption.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#123

Post by furiouslol » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:19 AM UTC

yamil wrote: post #5

Welcome to socialist states of America

AIG is getting badly punished for this.

They are getting the loan at LIBOR + 8.5%. That's downright punitive.

LIBOR + 8.5% is not a rate at which a company with AIG's business model could survive at. AIG lends to people at around LIBOR + 4% for mortgages or LIBOR + a lower % to insure BBB to AA rated borrowers.

They'll probably have to sell off their assets in a hurry at below fair value. The longer they wait, the more pain the high interest inflict on them.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#124

Post by mixmax » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:21 AM UTC

andr wrote: post #119

mixmax wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that empirical evidence is against you on this one. The US has one of the highest spendings on healthcare per capita in the world, while average life expectancy (one of the measures of a good health care system) is on par with Cuba. US yearly expenditure on healthcare per person is $4.500. In Cuba it's $100. The American freemarket system clearly doesn't work very well. Source: http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.p…

While spending per person in dollars may be higher, there is gross gross inflation in the health care sector, resulting in the hospital charging you $100 for a pack of Kleenex, because it's usually the insurance company that pays it.

Yes - in this respect the American health care system has similarities to the unregulated capitalist financial markets, which is part of the problem.

I think that your comment splendidly proves my point.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#125

Post by steveplace » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:32 AM UTC

ckinnan wrote: post #10

I want a bridge loan for my startup. Instead, I get to pay taxes to pay for this nonsense.

Incorrect. You get to pay taxes for this someday. The bailouts are financed with debt, not cash.

I, for one, welcome our soverign wealth fund overlords.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#126

Post by steveplace » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:33 AM UTC

azharcs wrote: post #79

quasimojo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where does the treasury and fed get the money? THEY PRINT IT a 1982 law lets treasury notes be redeemed with CREATED accounts, as in one of the partner banks of the reserve simply creates a new account by punching in the digits, and they assign it to you once again, this is law since 1982 this is why US treasuries have 100% certainty inside the USA while the US dollar still exists

Wouldn't that increase inflation.

That's why they fudge a little bit when they report CPI and PPI data.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#127

Post by netcan » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:33 AM UTC

bart111 wrote: post #91

gills wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they get it FROM YOU.

true. Through printing press though. This is additional 85bln usd in circulation. We will all pay at the gas pump and groceries. Socialism for the rich. Communistic China would not do that. It is sad to see the USA becoming parody of this what it used to represent.

Why is this for the rich? I've seen that remark thrown around several times & I don't understand it.

From what I understand, this sort of a move is basically done by inflating the dollar causing anyone who has savings to lose out (the people without savings only lose if their wages don't catch up).

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#128

Post by steveplace » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:35 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #100

yamil wrote: post #5

Welcome to socialist states of America

This is exactly the kind of comment that I feared we would see when articles like this start gaining traction. It's a cheese puff comment: it's got some taste, but it's empty. It has nothing to back it up, no content, no reasoning, no well crafted argument. It's just an empty "rah rah" type of slogan of the type that politicians regularly regurgitate. There is nothing new or clever about the comment, it's the sort of…

Freedom.

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#129

Post by aswanson » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 11:40 AM UTC

MaysonL wrote: post #101

helveticaman wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all comes down to the government intervention paradox: whenever something bad happens, people ask for intervention, which implies the only entity willing to do such things, the government. The sad part is, to my knowledge, this intervention never works out for the best . When is the last time you heard the phrase, "thank goodness the government intervened! It did such a good job, and now everyone's happy!" with re…

Let's see: the GI Bill, the Internet, Social Security, NASA's and DOD's funding of computer and semiconductor R&D all seem to have worked out fairly well. Not perfectly, but better than their non-existence would have.

I think helveticaman must have developed his own networking stack and routing architecture, not this government sponsored crap we all use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tcp/ip

Re: Fed takes over AIG

#130

Post by sethg » Wed, Sep 17, 2008, 12:00 PM UTC

ckinnan wrote: post #10

I want a bridge loan for my startup. Instead, I get to pay taxes to pay for this nonsense.

I am happy to report that one element of Obama's tax plan (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINA...) is to "eliminate capital-gains taxes for entrepreneurs and investors in small business".