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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#121

Post by david38 »

javajosh wrote: post #64
p1necone wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm often confused by this as well, it's always been fairly obvious to me that other animals are sentient just like us (why wouldn't they be, their physiology is similar, they're descended from common ancestors). Modern factory farming doesn't sit well with me, but I still fairly comfortably eat higher welfare (free range, from reputable brands) or self-caught/hunted meat. It bewilders me that someone would eat meat…

Predators eat their whole life without wondering where it came from or what it implies about the world. It seems like the base state for every living individual, and is the most natural thing in the world. I think this is an important distinction to make, because if you don't make it you end up expressing contempt for those who don't think more widely rather than admiration for those that do.

Operative word being predator. People eat meat and most can’t stand the sight of animals being slaughtered in the method they currently are.

Predators also put themselves at risk often, fail often, etc.

Factory livestock is very much removed from this.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#122

Post by [deleted] »

makeitdouble wrote: post #70
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

I think it would less a question of maturity and more of acceptance of societal values. Fundamentally eating meat is a behavior our societies want to preserve; setting exceptions gives some leeway and carve safe spaces, while also making the rule more powerful. For instance settings pets as off limit make it clearer that non-pets are for consumption. Farmers can spend time and develop attachment to their cows, unders…

[deleted]

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#123

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bane wrote: post #119
deutschewelle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

Octopus is a pretty great cooked food, not as a sashimi. In Korean cuisine, at least, you find it stir fried, with noodles, in rice bowls, in soups...all sorts of things. There's several different kinds commonly eaten, from very small bite-sized to ones where a tentacle has to be cut into several bite sized pieces. It's often kept live until cooked, a practice that ensures both freshness and offended Western sensibil…

> But Americans are largely people who consider seafood to start and stop at canned tuna so...

That isn’t very accurate. Coastal Americans have had plenty of seafood to choose from, consider when they would serve lobsters to prisoners. Alaska is full of seafood to the point that it is a staple (and considering many of the Inuit communities who have been on that diet for thousands of years). Just because the customs are different from other coastal communities in other countries doesn’t make America’s any less sophisticated.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#124

Post by nefitty »

sweetheart wrote: post #108
asdff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its been distributed here, prepped, and offered for sale, I might as well eat it since its there anyhow. Better conditions for animals will come from legislation and not consumer choices.

You don’t think individuals collective buying habits influence macro trends in supply?

I do. I would like to know what you think. My understanding of the mechanism is probably oversimplified.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#125

Post by deutschewelle »

friedturkey wrote: post #81
deutschewelle wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The backhanded comment really wasn't necessary here. All I did was point out that a financial transaction needed to take place between an individual and a large corporation who push their own version of moral reality. To me that is THE experience of one's moral values shifting to match the narrative producer BY paying for it. Imagine if you needed to pay someone everytime you needed to FEEL informed rather than actua…

What's with your backhanded comments lol People have been getting informed through documentaries for decades. People have been getting informed through books for millennia. People have been sharing experiences through discussion before recorded history. People share knowledge through countless mediums and that's how we learn and grow. Saying this is dystopian is goofy and makes no sense. Chill out, lad.

No post body was provided.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#126

Post by nefitty »

pensatoio wrote: post #106
AngryData wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there study's to back up the lack of octopus intelligence? Because if we are comparing octopus to other farm animals, most farm animals are dumb as a box of rocks compared to wild cousins or ancestors. We bred most farm animals to be dumb in process of domestication in order to keep them contained, the smart ones can escape, while the dumb ones get easily bred. Ive never seen anything to make me believe my cows a…

I would argue you need set a bar for intelligence and then prove a creature meets or exceeds it. Trying to come at it from the other end leaves you in impossible situations where extremes like, "trees are connected and therefore are sentient," become an acceptable motivation.

Sentience is more akin to the preference to avoid pain. Intelligence plays a role in the expression of sentience, but it is ultimately more akin to an ability rather than a preference trait as sentience is.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#127

Post by exodust »

pempem wrote: post #55
awb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't until someone mentioned that many animals (and all mammals) talk to their babies just like we do that it rung home for me.

Its unclear to me. Some variants of hinduism have embraced this for ages. The underlying belief of vegetarianism in this culture is that animals are kin and eaten only when survival is on the line. When there is choice (and there almost always is) you choose not to eat meat. The part that I've found newly confounding is the 'thinking' of plants. Can't square that one. Thankfully there are a few studies debunking anyt…

The "thinking" aspect of plants might be reclaimed in respect of the overall foundations of mother nature's connected biodiversity.

As the maker of the octopus doco put it, the "giant biological mind". This interview is cued up at the point he mentions that: https://youtu.be/oyBqZ-_5B_8?t=587

I think he makes a good point, it's a good reminder.

It's a distraction when the argument becomes "plants can't think like humans". But why should plants need to think like us to be protected or respected? The point is, humans are crushing those precious ecosystems, all because individual plants can't think and fish have no feelings.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#128

Post by gfody »

AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

can you really compare cows to octopuses? are there even wild cows?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#129

Post by crudolph »

Honestly we need to quit pretending that we, as humans, are something special as compared to other omnivorous or carnivorous mammals. OK we have more gray matter comparatively but really that means nothing.

Some cultures eat octopus, some eat dogs, some eat cats, some eat cows, and of course some eat humans. And some eat vegetation. Do you honestly think those cultures sit back and question what they are doing and if it is ok in order to survive?!

I'm laughing at the responses to this post - sentience, history of eating octopi, god told me, etc.. as an excuse for why humans shouldn't eat octopus. Who really fucking cares.

I can ramble on and debate all this until I'm blue. My goal is not necessarily to argue, but to light a spark.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#130

Post by gopher_space »

deutschewelle wrote: post #56
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

We’ve felt morally superior for ages over the whole whaling issue.
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