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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#121
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

most americans live insular suburban lives in their bubble and when they get doses of current events they are algorithmically fed confirmation bias and especially confirmation bid that arouses them to click/engage. I.e tabloidizing the cherry picked facts that then framed with the biases that poke the viewers buttons.

None of that changes the fact that it's easier than ever to seek out contradicting points of view. People just don't want to.

The algorithms feed people stuff that confirms their beliefs because that's what they like.

It's all about preferences and choices, not ability.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#122
Misinformation has always existed.

I think the emergent phenomena that we are seeing is simply a scaled up version of the problems Plato pointed out in the Republic.

The REAL problem, is that democracy as an organization if people isn't going to produce a society of freedom and justice, no, democracy produces a hedonic society. So the question becomes, how do we LIVE with that?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#123

From the article: > That said, I do not think there is much evidence that misinformation has become more widespread, that this increase in misinformation is due to technological change, or that it is at the root of the political trends liberals are most angry about. I don't know if misinformation is at the root of the political trends liberals are most angry about , not least because it really depends on the author's…

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#125
This seems to be redefining what misinformed means, but I'm not sure what they intend to achieve by that.

> "They don’t have crank opinions because they are misinformed, they have tons and tons of moon-related factual information because they’re cranks"

Having a section about how conspiracy theorists are very knowledgeable about their subjects and then immediately saying that a right wing economist is really well informed about arguments against minimum wage regulations seemed a little on the nose, but I think it was just a coincidence.

Basically, people are allowed to be wrong about stuff but only if they are right-wing, because right-wing people have traditionally been wrong. Is that what we are saying?

> "So people vote Republican, I think, not because of “misinformation” but because they perceive that the GOP position on many policy topics has moderated while the Democratic Party’s has gotten more left-wing"

So they aren't misinformed, they just realised 10 years late that what the "left-wing" opinion 10 years ago was, was what they wanted after all? So how do we know they won't do the same in ten more years, which in fact he pretty openly states they will.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#126
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just that they're alert to it, they're hyper alert to it. They even see it where it doesn't exist, and they "white knight" for it, trying to prevent people from giving offense even if nobody is actually offended. They take "being a good person" so far that they make life hard for others instead. The root of their beliefs is good: All people are worthy of respect and shouldn't be judged based on things out of…

Can you give an example, please? ("They take "being a good person" so far that they make life hard for others instead.", for example is a bit vague - that could apply to pious Christians, you're not against Christians, are you?)

Not the OP, but "holier than thou" is not a positive human type.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#127
At the end, it is a matter of believe. We choose what information should we believe or not. But we should always be able to confront that information with real life around us and look in specific topics from multiple sources. And keep asking questions.

I hope people will look more and more for information about topic as vaccination. Because right know we come to era that we are really able to get access to information that was hidden for decades.

I recommend book from German medical doctor "Gerhard Buchwald - Vaccination - A Business Based on Fear". Book was released in 1994 and observe the development of diseases and vaccination in Germany.

Yes, it is easy to say that someone is anti-vax, but if you really inform yourself in this topic, you'll start ask questions that are valid and should be debated more.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was pretty normal until around 2018 on the contrary. I’m sure losing her job in 2008 and ending up socially isolated because she doesn’t speak fluent English didn’t help. I’m not claiming ordinary and well adjusted people easily fall prey to misinformation if that’s what you’re trying to refute here. It’s simply an observational fact that conspiracy groups wield skeptic talking points as weapons and that modern t…

There is a bit of a catch 22 here. I think you're right. Most of the garbage floating about our public discourse (and I would submit most of it is garbage) is rooted in some legitimate facts. So your MIL will get some of these skeptical headlines, perhaps with some of these more conspiratorial groups capitalizing on and embellishing the these things. I think what you say is happening is.... ... but on the other side,…

Indeed, it’s an emergent behavior in highly connected information systems.

I’ve written about this in a different context here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30172467#30178198

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#129

I've also noticed that the term "willful ignorance" gets thrown around a lot more nowadays. There is a sizeable contingent of people who are so convinced that what they believe is the absolute truth that any disagreement or critique must therefore be out of malice rather than genuine disagreement.

Most peoples' conclusions are based on some kind of logical deduction. Where people differ is the fundamental "beliefs" which are treated axiomatically (taken on faith) on which the logical superstructure is built. Edit: people also assign different "comparative value" to different things. Most value judgements involve comparing apples and oranges, but one person might have a preference for oranges and someone else m…

> Most peoples' conclusions are based on some kind of logical deduction.

"Some kind" is doing a lot of work there, but I think there's some truth to what you're saying. My father-in-law will pop out with some bizarro story about how global warming was invented to cover up government collaboration with aliens, or Covid-19 was created in a lab using Vince Foster's stem cells, and when my wife asks where he heard it, it'll be from some guy he met last week and talked to for a total of half an hour while he was buying a motorcycle from him. Or maybe he didn't buy the motorcycle because he didn't totally trust the guy, but he believed him about the aliens. If you or me repeated information from a source like that, we'd be doing it in bad faith, but my father-in-law does it with a kind of innocent sincerity.

There are a lot of people like my father-in-law, but there are also a lot of people who are aware that what they're saying isn't literally true, but it's a way of supporting a system that they believe is wholesome for society, or at wholesome to their own interests. So there's a spectrum much like religion, with true believers on one end, and complete unbelievers on the other end who outwardly speak and behave as if they believe, because they think it's a good story for little kids to grow up with and because they think it's an effective shared fiction to structure society around.

In a sense you could say that both my father-in-law and the college-educated conspiracy theorists are willfully ignorant. My father-in-law sincerely believes a lot of sketchy things about politics and the government, but his lack of skepticism is not completely symmetrical. He is nominally in the "they're all crooks" camp, but he is not as quick to believe really crazy stuff about Republicans as about Democrats. Against Republicans, he'll believe that they invent reasons to use military hardware because they have a cozy relationship with defense contractors. Against Democrats, he'll believe that the military invented and perfect flying saucers in the 1950s, and then Barbara Bush and Anton Levay opened a portal to hell by having butt sex in a church and we gave the flying saucers to the demons so if they crash people will just think they're aliens. (Barbara Bush was a secret Demoncrat, of course -- she was pro-abortion!)

There's a lot about my father-in-law's internal mental state that I can't figure out from the outside. When he "believes" something crazy about Democrats, he's aware that he enjoys believing and repeating it, he seems to be aware that there's a certain kind of scrutiny that it won't hold up under, but he also regards it as actionable information in the sense that he votes based on his distaste for the Democrats and he cites crazy conspiracy stuff as supporting his distaste for the Democrats.

tl;dr Most people's conclusions are based on "some kind of logical deduction" in the sense that almost any cognitive process can be described as "some kind of logical deduction."

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#130

Misinformation has always existed. I think the emergent phenomena that we are seeing is simply a scaled up version of the problems Plato pointed out in the Republic. The REAL problem, is that democracy as an organization if people isn't going to produce a society of freedom and justice, no, democracy produces a hedonic society. So the question becomes, how do we LIVE with that?

I mean if hedonism is what you are concerned about the only difference is democracy brings hedonism to the common man instead of just the elites. And even then the elites can afford to be more hedonistic than than the common man anyway. Anyone with power has always been a hedonist in any form of government.
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