I remember GWT.
Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
121–130 of 328 posts
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#122Funnily enough, PHP (like, old school PHP) is a surprisingly neat fit for this style of programming when combined with htmx[0] Tiny amount of glue HTML attributes, a heap of partials that are your PHP files and you’re good to go. What is old is new again I suppose: we used to do this with PHP and jQuery once upon a time too — though LiveView and similar are far nicer of course. I’ve been working on some personal tool…
htmx's modal demo fails accessibility quite badly.
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#123Backend languages came to the frontend with Unity and Silverlight..
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#124There is not BE or FE lang. The browser (the universal VM) just only takes JS and WASM at the moment. So they can be considered browser NATIVE. TypeScript is not native. Is it then also a BE lang? What is happening here is a big rift in the programmers community between the "I'm productive in it so it is great" and the "I prefer to use strong typing and proofs to ensure it does not break at runtime". And the second g…
Agreed. Javascript is increasingly something that is optional. You can use it but you no longer have to use it. And even if you are using it, you are more than likely transpiling it. Browser side Javascript is just a compiler target at this point. There are a minority of people not doing any transpilation of course. But at this point that really is a minority (and by no small margin I'm guessing). Nothing against tha…
> Long term WASM is a more efficient compiler target. Smaller, faster, easier to deal with for compiler builders, etc.
And more obfuscatable.
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#125Not one mention of Java server faces (JSF) ?
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#126Any thoughts on anvil? It’s a full-stack python framework. I think it features a python to js transpiler:
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
I actually appreciate domain-specific programming languages. It's fine (for me) that JS is the native front-end language. It's fine that Rust targets systems and embedded. I love that Python is a middle ground, and really great backends are built on it. I'm great with C being a really low level language that forces me to think about the machine. Taking "I'm productive in it so it is great" to an extreme, we end up se…
> Somehow, since browsers are well accepted, node.js is a reasonable benchmark for embedded systems performance [3] NodeJS relies on V8, which is perhaps the world's most highly optimised interpreter (/JIT compiler/runner), and a spectacular piece of software. The v8.dev blog alone is fantastic reading for anyone who works on compilers, as I do. I don't like the 'dev' tendency in the programming community, to just ha…
That is impressive, and not unexpected given the (likely) billions of dollars of investment in things like nodejs. I did not mean to disparage it in itself just because it was developed for a particular domain.
However, if "An embedded system uses the internet to communicate" has become synonymous with "It runs linux and uses web services and nodejs" then that would be a perfect example of contorting the application to match the technology that more programmers are most productive with.
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Somehow, since browsers are well accepted, node.js is a reasonable benchmark for embedded systems performance [3] NodeJS relies on V8, which is perhaps the world's most highly optimised interpreter (/JIT compiler/runner), and a spectacular piece of software. The v8.dev blog alone is fantastic reading for anyone who works on compilers, as I do. I don't like the 'dev' tendency in the programming community, to just ha…
That is impressive, and not unexpected given the (likely) billions of dollars of investment in things like nodejs. I did not mean to disparage it in itself just because it was developed for a particular domain. However, if "An embedded system uses the internet to communicate" has become synonymous with "It runs linux and uses web services and nodejs" then that would be a perfect example of contorting the application…
> I did not mean to disparage it just because it was developed for a particular domain.
Fair enough, that's all I was saying. I'd agree with you that the increased use of Node everywhere to build applications, with tools like Electron, is an utterly stultifying trend.
It's fantastic for I/O-heavy 'server'-type code, and for using JS as an at least surprisingly performant interpreted language, but it's disappointing to see it replacing languages like Swift or C++ in computation-heavy systems programming - or domains which should be the preserve of systems programmers.
> However, if "An embedded system uses the internet to communicate" has become synonymous with "It runs linux and uses web services and nodejs" then that would be a perfect example of contorting the application to match the technology that more programmers are most productive with.
I absolutely agree. No quibble with you there! I'm a fan of using the best tool for the job. And, much as it's a meme, I absolutely adore Rust for lots of systems programming applications.
PS: If what you love about Rust is its safety even more than its speed, then I'd recommend looking into Ada, which could be called the precursor of Rust. It has none of Rust's modern trendiness, but it's a mindblowing accomplishment in TypeScript/Haskell-grade type expressivity (with Rust-grade safety) while still retaining I-believe-greater-than-Rust speed.
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#129There is not BE or FE lang. The browser (the universal VM) just only takes JS and WASM at the moment. So they can be considered browser NATIVE. TypeScript is not native. Is it then also a BE lang? What is happening here is a big rift in the programmers community between the "I'm productive in it so it is great" and the "I prefer to use strong typing and proofs to ensure it does not break at runtime". And the second g…
> What is happening here is a big rift in the programmers community between the "I'm productive in it so it is great" and the "I prefer to use strong typing and proofs to ensure it does not break at runtime". I think the opposite, the rift has been healing. It seemed that it was pretty big in the 2010's (Python/Ruby/Perl vs Java/C#/C++) but these days we have TypeScript, Rust, Kotlin; Java and C# are getting better t…
> healing
> these days we have TypeScript, Rust, Kotlin; Java and C# are getting better too (type inference), Python and Ruby are getting typechecking
everyone caves to the types.
i think the strongest holdout is probably the LISP/Clojure corner. they have optional typing for along time, but it is not used that much afaik
many have voiced their reasons for liking dynamic typing. i only have one: faster reload cycles while developing. the other pros of dynamic typing are all over shadowed by their inherent downsides.
Re: Back-end languages are coming to the front-end
#130Anyone have good experiences with a LiveView-style Python framework?
You can try Django Unicorn (https://www.django-unicorn.com) if Django is your cup of tea.
Have used it in production and it works great. Author is also very responsive to bugfixes / feature requests.