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Red Light Green Light

jamessevedge.com

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Re: Red Light Green Light

#121

Post by mcv »

lumost wrote: post #80
aeternum wrote: post #15

Similar things happen surprisingly often in companies. Many intense arguments can be diffused by first being specific about what we agree upon. Just to add to this, one strategy from the rationalist community that I rarely see practiced is to 'taboo' certain words. For example if two engineers are arguing about a solution not being scalable, taboo the word scalable. They both re-explain their POV without using the wo…

So often I see engineers get sucked into arguing something based on a buzzword that they either believe the system they are building needs to conform to, they think other people (outside the company) care about, or because it agrees with their pre-conceived design notions. Nuking words interrupts this, I often ban the words "scalable", "Automated", "platform", and "system". It forces the conversation back to specific…

Banning those words also makes the conversation easier to follow for people who don't know the jargon. Jargon can be a quick shortcut when everybody is talking the same jargon and is clear about what every word means, but it can become a massive barrier to discussion if one of those criteria is not met.

Re: Red Light Green Light

#122

Post by mcv »

matsemann wrote: post #110

My take after reading this is a bit different than the others. I think it's absolutely insane that a three year old has to learn traffic rules to not be mauled to death by passing cars. What a fail of society.

A 3 year old shouldn't be in traffic unsupervised of course, but it can't hurt to help them understand what's going on around them. Even at age 3, kids are interested in that stuff. And eventually they do have to learn this, and by the time they're old enough to be in traffic unsupervised, they should already know it. So you start early.

Re: Red Light Green Light

#123

Post by ajuc »

aeternum wrote: post #15

Similar things happen surprisingly often in companies. Many intense arguments can be diffused by first being specific about what we agree upon. Just to add to this, one strategy from the rationalist community that I rarely see practiced is to 'taboo' certain words. For example if two engineers are arguing about a solution not being scalable, taboo the word scalable. They both re-explain their POV without using the wo…

Or just ask "what do you mean by X".

Re: Red Light Green Light

#124

Post by ajuc »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #16
RangerScience wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that (AFAIK), for adults, "why" can get you the wrong response (puts people on the defensive), so (AFAIK) it's recommended to use "what" instead (which tends to get at the "why" you wanted in the first place) - "why do you think that?" -> "what led to you thinking that?" :shrug: It works, sooooo.

I also stay away from second person: "what led to you thinking that?" -> "what led to that thought?" My preferred version: "what was the motivation for choosing that?". It's especially helpful on a team working with legacy software. Because the root cause can sometimes be a historic team decision, no longer attributable to anyone on the current team. Where "led you" can result in the "oh it wasn't my idea" responses,…

"How do you know".

But anyway, I don't think it matters that much.

Re: Red Light Green Light

#125

Post by hvusslax »

altacc wrote: post #114
matsemann wrote: post #110

My take after reading this is a bit different than the others. I think it's absolutely insane that a three year old has to learn traffic rules to not be mauled to death by passing cars. What a fail of society.

Even in countries with zero child deaths due to traffic, children need to have some traffic sense, and that's part of what helps keep the accident rate low. Cars exist and a child running into the road unexpectedly can still be injured by the safest possible car driven by the safest possible driver. Learning to cross the road is a basic skill children benefit from learning. Having traffic sense also gives them more f…

This is the norm in many places in Europe and elsewhere. 6 year olds walking to school by themselves and crossing multiple roads on the way.

America is a bit different. It is also built completely differently when it comes to car-oriented infrastructure.

Re: Red Light Green Light

#126

Post by ajuc »

mulmen wrote: post #59

Great story but what's with the fixation on fault? It's nobody's fault if a genetic trait is inherited, there's no control over that.

You could argue if incest is morally bad then so is procreation when you have negative inheritable traits and know about them. It gets ugly pretty quickly from there though.

Re: Red Light Green Light

#127

Post by augustl »

QuadrupleA wrote: post #87

Sorry to be a curmudgeon, it's a poetic little story - but isn't the takeaway a little banal? "Different people have different perspectives." Well sure. "Consider things from others' viewpoints." Of course. I don't know, it rings a little of management-ese, or something overpaid consultants might present in the boardroom that gets everybody nodding their head and feeling like they've received great wisdom, but is a l…

For me, the takeaway is pretty deep:

Other peoples world views are valid.

It's so easy and so human to criticize other people's views, filtered through my own world view. But then I'm really only criticizing own interpretation of their view.

For me, this is a lesson that almost can't be repeated enough, because I tend to slip into forgetting about it.

But good for you if you find it obvious and banal :)

Re: Red Light Green Light

#128

Post by KronisLV »

kqr wrote: post #84
Buttons840 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish it was a common practice to ban certain words from difficult conversations. But whenever I suggest it people just talk past me as though I've said some weird thing. There's facts and opinions, but also definitions, and too often disagreements boil down to a different definition of a single word. Ban that word and say what you mean and the disagreement may suddenly be gone. Edit: I wrote this before reading the…

I don't use the "taboo" terminology, but I frequently ask people to operationalise their definitions in arguments. ("What specific steps would I go through to test whether the system is scalable or not?") The first time I ask, people ignore it and/or don't understand it. The second time I ask, people get uncomfortable because generally they haven't thought about what they mean to that level of detail, and they try to…

> The first time I ask, people ignore it and/or don't understand it.

What if this also happens the second, third and Nth time you try?

> The second time I ask, people get uncomfortable because generally they haven't thought about what they mean to that level of detail, and they try to weasel out of it.

Or maybe people decide to stay here, believing their subjective views to be good enough answer for such a question. Then what?

Re: Red Light Green Light

#129

Post by teekert »

I wish I wrote down all these kinds of things my kids have said. One thing I remember is my daughter explaining, full of confidence, to her brother that in summer the ice sinks to the bottom of the canal and it comes up in winter. Which is a very good hypothesis if you don’t know about phase changes in matter.

Kids always say these kinds of things because the models of the world in their little heads are incomplete. But then, for who are they complete, really?

Re: Red Light Green Light

#130

Post by matsemann »

afandian wrote: post #115
matsemann wrote: post #110

My take after reading this is a bit different than the others. I think it's absolutely insane that a three year old has to learn traffic rules to not be mauled to death by passing cars. What a fail of society.

As someone with a child the same age, I see it very differenly. The way I explain it is that traffic lights, roads, crossings, etc, are a mechanism by which society co-operates. Everyone's trying to do something a little different, and if we work together and buy into a shared understanding then we can all do what we want to do. That's a really positive thing. We can all get on with what we need to without resorting…

It's not co-operation if one part lives at the mercy of the other.
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