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Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

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121–130 of 145 posts

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#121
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully. To me, philosophical and theological reasoning are not fundamental as they may be to you, because I have accepted they are an outcome of a particular brain architecture with its own tendencies and biases, itself an outcome of a more general process. This ar…

"Understanding our reasoning capacities as the outcome of a natural physical process leads to my agreement with Dawkins's claim that any philosophical result prior to 1859 can be disregarded." I'm sorry my friend, but... no . I'm open to a lot of ideas and directions that a discussion may take but this is just a non-starter, a laughable example of exactly the sort of benighted, willful ignorance that dooms fruitful d…

Thank you for the references. I wasn't trying to debate the point, only offer one perspective on your question. To elaborate a little more, the reason why philosophy prior to 1859 is not relevant is because philosophy is the study of human thought (and the answers it produces to philosophical questions), whereas the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolutionary framework. A good analogy here is alchemy; Darwin's results implied prior philosophy was the wrong approach as chemistry implied the confused results of alchemy, and all the latter's results were reduced to no more than historical curiosity.

As an addendum, the reason why philosophy has been unsuccessful at producing answers is because it assumes human thought or language or existence as something fundamental. As Eliezer points out, rather than ask "do we have free will?", the productive perspective is to ask "what sort of algorithm does our brain run which makes it believe such a question is meaningful or answerable?" Have you read the Less Wrong series on rationality? It's a good exposition of the thinking process of someone like me.

Certainly the attempts prior to 1859 were brave, but it was quackery. Much like Erdos's comments on the collatz conjecture, we are not yet ready for such questions (although neuroscience will get us close in the next century).

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Understanding our reasoning capacities as the outcome of a natural physical process leads to my agreement with Dawkins's claim that any philosophical result prior to 1859 can be disregarded." I'm sorry my friend, but... no . I'm open to a lot of ideas and directions that a discussion may take but this is just a non-starter, a laughable example of exactly the sort of benighted, willful ignorance that dooms fruitful d…

Ok, let me apologize. "Laughable" and "benighted" are the kinds of uncharitable language I'm arguing against using. The charitable read of this statement would have acknowledged its substance -- the idea that after Darwin there was a 'clearing of the decks' so to speak, and to some degree that's true although not to the extent Dawkins claims. From a philosophical standpoint, certainly Teleology was seen to have been…

I don't see why. Without mechanical tools and rudimentary physics, progress on flying machines was nil until the Wright brothers. Without better tools to study brains, there is no reason to expect we have produced any valuable answers to the sorts of "big questions" brains ask about themselves.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#123
post #106

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

>>the absolute philosophical illiteracy of so many naively confident advocates of reductionist science and the silly caricatures of faith they hold to. (I can agree that Dawkins doesn't really have the background to do the theological/philosophical detailed arguments.) I just note that to be religious is to make claims about the world ("reality", for some form of meaning) that is not based on reason or proof of facts…

Whenever I see the Great FSM, I feel nothing except the need for Parmesan and a fork. Would that be like Mass for Pastafarians?

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Understanding our reasoning capacities as the outcome of a natural physical process leads to my agreement with Dawkins's claim that any philosophical result prior to 1859 can be disregarded." I'm sorry my friend, but... no . I'm open to a lot of ideas and directions that a discussion may take but this is just a non-starter, a laughable example of exactly the sort of benighted, willful ignorance that dooms fruitful d…

Thank you for the references. I wasn't trying to debate the point, only offer one perspective on your question. To elaborate a little more, the reason why philosophy prior to 1859 is not relevant is because philosophy is the study of human thought (and the answers it produces to philosophical questions), whereas the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolution…

"the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolutionary framework."

This is a concise version of the fundamental category mistake Dawkins makes. In one sentence, we've dogmatically blown past thousands of years of deep reflection on the mind/body question. It's not as if the idea that mind were reducible to matter had never been broached before, or that the Mendelian breakthrough provided some evidence that was philosophically pertinent. And Certainly Origin of Species does not put a cap on that discussion any more than Dennett's Consciousness Explained does. It's very much a live question to this day, as it was a live question when Cicero and Lucretius engaged on the very same terms.

If the mind/body problem has not been settled now (and it certainly wasn't in 1859, that's more than anyone could possibly claim) then for that reason at least no one should take Dawkins seriously on this count, and fortunately very few serious thinkers do.

"although neuroscience will get us close in the next century"

This is first-rate eschatology, more cashing out of the infinite blank check of the Future of Science (let us pray). This is dogmatism, not science, not philosophy. It's hope.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#125
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clarification then (the reply tree seems to halt, so I'm posting this higher up): I run into a lot of atheists these days who've read Dawkins, Dennett, Sam Harris, maybe even Stephen Pinker, heck maybe even the whole John Brockman crew of "Brights" and so forth. And that's all, and I don't understand that. I'm no exemplar of intellectual integrity, but I'm just too curious to not read contrary points of view. I tho…

A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully. To me, philosophical and theological reasoning are not fundamental as they may be to you, because I have accepted they are an outcome of a particular brain architecture with its own tendencies and biases, itself an outcome of a more general process. This ar…

"Understanding our reasoning capacities as the outcome of a natural physical process leads to my agreement with Dawkins's claim that any philosophical result prior to 1859 can be disregarded"

On a side note: Of _course_ _Dawkins_ would say that, being an evolutionary biologist... :)

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#126
post #96

This isn't reddit, this isn't related to programming or even computers. Yes, I'm Christian and I find this guy annoying. As a programmer though, I couldn't care less about him.

We feel bad for you son. Since we established this isn't reddit, your personal opinions on Dawkins shouldn't decide whether this article should or shouldn't be here.

Nope, my opinion shouldn't. But the fact that he isn't hacking at anything should. Hence the comment, as a programmer I couldn't care less about him.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#127

Dawkins doesn't bother me any more than any other atheist I've read. The fact that he lives and is popular in my time makes him no more threatening to my faith than Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lucretius, A.J. Ayer or Bertrand Russell. I know where my faith fits in the history of ideas, and I'm comfortable in the capacious intellectual house it affords me. Dawkins is amusing at best, annoying at worst. As a philosophical…

I've never once see an Atheist imply that Phelps and Lewis should be judged equally, just as I've never even conceived of someone dismissing someone's accomplishments purely because of their faith. Likewise, I'd like to thank you for reinforcing the notion that Atheists are angry. As one who feels persecuted, I often do feel angry about it. But to assume that I'm not versed in religious, theological, or philosophical…

I'm sorry, but you say that you're versed in scripture? Well, clearly you're not. You would know that we are ALL sinners and that Jesus Christ died for our sins. You are not versed in scripture, nor do you have knowledge of what sin is.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#128
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully. To me, philosophical and theological reasoning are not fundamental as they may be to you, because I have accepted they are an outcome of a particular brain architecture with its own tendencies and biases, itself an outcome of a more general process. This ar…

> A good argument is enough. I'm a mathematician and I have not read any of the original papers of Euler, Gauss, etc. but understand and accept their results fully. Here what would answer one of my friends. He happen believe atheism is true, but more importantly, he's a literary person. So: "To understand [such and such author]'s ideas and concepts, you have to impregnate yourself with their original thoughts. That i…

But, you know, if we disagree, at least one of us must be mistaken, right? Wouldn't it be interesting to know who?

Chances are, both of you. Put another way, you are both right in ways you wouldn't suspect, and wrong in the same fashion. The unknown unknowns of epistemology, so to speak.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the references. I wasn't trying to debate the point, only offer one perspective on your question. To elaborate a little more, the reason why philosophy prior to 1859 is not relevant is because philosophy is the study of human thought (and the answers it produces to philosophical questions), whereas the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolution…

"the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolutionary framework." This is a concise version of the fundamental category mistake Dawkins makes. In one sentence, we've dogmatically blown past thousands of years of deep reflection on the mind/body question. It's not as if the idea that mind were reducible to matter had never been broached before, or that the Mende…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the references. I wasn't trying to debate the point, only offer one perspective on your question. To elaborate a little more, the reason why philosophy prior to 1859 is not relevant is because philosophy is the study of human thought (and the answers it produces to philosophical questions), whereas the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolution…

"the origin of the organ which produces human thought was fundamentally misunderstood without the evolutionary framework." This is a concise version of the fundamental category mistake Dawkins makes. In one sentence, we've dogmatically blown past thousands of years of deep reflection on the mind/body question. It's not as if the idea that mind were reducible to matter had never been broached before, or that the Mende…

I see. Let's say we completed the study of a new field, neurophilosophy, where we learn precisely the neural mechanisms for how and why we generate the philosophical questions we do, and why we find them "interesting," and why we reason about them the way we do. I don't think that would convince anyone as to why classical philosophical arguments bear no merit. I never bought into the fundamental category division, but for the first time, I see the issue clearly. Then I am flabbergasted as how to even conceive bridging the gap, my mathematical intuition tells me it is nonsensical, and that we must throw away the non-physical category--but is that like throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

This is very tricky, and my arguments above on religion don't appeal to my last few posts on "philosophy before 1859," but we digress. Thanks for the back-and-forth!

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