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Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

atg.wa.gov

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Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#121

Post by bee_rider »

blocked_again wrote: post #92
bee_rider wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our system is not a totally free market, we have consumer protection and antitrust regulations to avoid some of the possible negative outcomes there.

I don't really buy that consumer protection and antitrust regulations actually result in a better free market. I think the market is better off doing it's thing rather than a bunch of politicians trying to make it more efficient.

What do you mean by "better free market?" Are you using terms like "efficient" and "free market" in their technical sense or are you just saying that you don't like regulations?

Definitionally regulations are a divergence from an ideal free market. Provably, under some conditions (which don't exist in the real world) a market will converge to some definition of efficiency. Practically, no politician cares about this.

Politicians aren't trying to make the market more efficient with regulations -- good politicians are trying to protect their constituents, bad ones are mostly trying to protect their donors.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#122

Post by Jiro »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #24
nickff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they were trying to correct or prevent it? If they hadn't done the training, you'd be saying that they never even tried to avoid it.

This isn't about prevention. It's training to avoid recording damning evidence. The bad behavior can continue as long as it isn't written down. Preferably implemented in pieces that lend plausible deniability.

Even companies who are innocent, and don't have any damning evidence because they did nothing wrong, need policies like this. You can be innocent and someone can still sue you, find the suspicious-sounding messages, and use them against you. Proving your innocence may cost money and reputation, not to mention that since the justice system is imperfect, there's always a chance that you can still lose the lawsuit.

This is just the corporate equivalent of "if you're not guilty, you have nothing to hide". You damn well do have something to hide even if you're not guilty, and that's why companies train their employees this way.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#123

Post by Jiro »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #91
nickff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was generally accepted that changing verbiage/language has a huge impact on the way people think. Do you disagree with that notion?

Data retention training is always about limiting liability. These are the sort of companies that delete emails after 18 months no matter how much that kneecaps the employees. No amount of training will change the behavior of the sociopaths calling the shots. They need their underlings to not ruin everything for them with careless mistakes. Any other story is just a cover because they can't state their true intentions…

Companies tell employees to delete emails after 18 months because there are two alternatives: 1) delete emails after 18 months (or some similar time period), or 2) never delete emails, ever. If your policy is "delete emails based on personal preference", someone can sue you in court and claim that the selective deletions of email is evidence of wrongdoing even if you just happened to have a full hard drive that day. And you don't actually need to be a wrongdoer for someone to claim this.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#124

Post by zepto »

pueblito wrote: post #57
pm90 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Fines as a way of funding is almost always bad. If that money was to provide relief to aggrieved customers, that would certainly be different.

Are you concerned the financial motive will drive them to break up too many companies? Because right now I think that’s a great idea

Any mistake breaking up companies ruins people’s careers and harms the economy needlessly. A perverse incentive to do so is stupidity.

It may be necessary sometimes, but it should be very carefully considered.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#125

Post by divbzero »

bondolo wrote: post #120

I feel mixed about this because "sold by Amazon" meant that if there was a problem I got to deal with Amazon customer service rather than trying to get service from some Joe with a mailbox 3rd-party reseller. Yes, I often knew I was paying more and explicitly chose the SBA option as a loss-risk reduction strategy.

Like you, I am willing to pay a extra for “Sold by Amazon” for the reliable customer service and return policy. But I do not like Amazon coordinating with other sellers to fix the price and would want them to compete head-on.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#126

Post by yazaddaruvala »

clintonc wrote: post #67
Spivak wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different from Kroger getting to set the prices of both Lay’s and their store brand chips?

It would be the same, except - Kroger isn't 50% of all grocery stores on earth - Kroger paid money up front for your potato chips - Kroger isn't charging you for storing your potato chips

> Kroger paid money up front for your potato chips

I agree, the Kroger Purchase Order is currently in bulk infrequently (e.g. 100units once a week), but the Amazon Purchase Order is currently not-bulk frequently (e.g. 1 unit 100 times a week).

Meanwhile, "Kroger makes no representation regarding the maintenance of any specific retail price for Products purchased for resale."[0]. As I understand it, that means it can change the price at any time. If in week 2, Kroger prefers a lower price, it can tell the seller "Last week was $22, but now I'll only buy the potato chips for $20 and no more. Do you still want to keep selling to Kroger?".

I don't see how this is materially different from the case about Amazon. Because the reality is no merchant cares about 1 bulk order, they only care about continuous re-orders.

[0] https://www.thekrogerco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/kro_s...

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#127

Post by [deleted] »

pstrateman wrote: post #84
ISL wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm extra confused, as I'd interpreted "Ships from and sold by Amazon" as "Amazon supplied the goods and will vouch for their validity", whereas "Sold by ISL" would have meant that ISL was on the ultimate hook should the goods prove to be counterfeit. Learn something new (and important) every day.

Sold by Amazon and Fulfilled by Amazon seem to come out of the same box at the warehouse. Unfortunately if you really need genuine products you simply cannot buy things off Amazon anymore.

[deleted]

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#129

Post by csours »

valar_m wrote: post #9

Former Amazonian here. When i was there, they made us take this antitrust training course that had things like "don't use terms like 'market share' in internal communications", but all along there were people doing this? I mean...

Corpo training like that is a CYA for the company [0]. If an employee screws up it's much easier to fire them because you can show they knew better.

0. In addition to also being legit training sometimes.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#130

Post by encryptluks2 »

pstrateman wrote: post #84
ISL wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm extra confused, as I'd interpreted "Ships from and sold by Amazon" as "Amazon supplied the goods and will vouch for their validity", whereas "Sold by ISL" would have meant that ISL was on the ultimate hook should the goods prove to be counterfeit. Learn something new (and important) every day.

Sold by Amazon and Fulfilled by Amazon seem to come out of the same box at the warehouse. Unfortunately if you really need genuine products you simply cannot buy things off Amazon anymore.

> Unfortunately if you really need genuine products you simply cannot buy things off Amazon anymore.

That is a very generalized statement. I have bought hundreds products shipped and sold by Amazon and never had an issue with authenticity. I'm sure it happens, but I'm willing to guess it is pretty rare and Amazon has always been quick to refund products that are shipped and sold by Amazon.

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