"Do no evil." indeed.
It was removed from the code of conduct long ago
Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
121–130 of 411 posts
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.
Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?
Contrary to the shoe-pounding HN rhetoric, there are good companies and bad companies.
Which one is often a function of the people running it at the highest levels. Very often companies are founded by good people with good intents, who end up leaving for one reason or another, and are taken over by people with a different set of values.
I don't know enough about the internal workings of Google to say that's the case here. But from what I've read on HN, it does appear that Google's morals changed dramatically when its founders lost control of and influence in the company.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are they happier at Tesla? Because I hear it is pretty terrible place to work as a software engineer.
given the job market, while it may 'suck', clearly nobody is making them stay. i.e. may suck on a day-to-day basis, but get rewarded richly after x amount of time Almost anybody can complain about their job, but in this industry, in this job market right now - anyone staying is staying because the pluses outweigh the minuses.
That statement can apply to any company and doesn’t answer the question at all!
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Simply a roll of the dice. In that case, so is this very conversation, the fact that we're both on this website, and even the fact that we are both interested in tech. If it's simply a roll of the dice, then nearly all aspects to existence are pointless, there's no point in trying to think for oneself, etc. Perhaps this is what you truly intend to convey, but until you explicitly state this, this is an incoherent p…
shadowgovt said it very well and he speaks for me there. But I do believe that when hard work and preparation meets opportunity, good things happen. I'm not saying everything is pointless at all. I've earned every one of the few pennies I have the hard way, believe me. I have a non-stop work history going back to when I was 11 years old, grinding down spot welding tips on a lathe to buy my own video games and toys. M…
> 11 years old, grinding down spot welding tips on a lathe
Where did you store the lathe at night? Where did you plug it in? And how did you get the electricity to that outlet, was there an account in your name with the power company as an 11 year old?
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Simply a roll of the dice. In that case, so is this very conversation, the fact that we're both on this website, and even the fact that we are both interested in tech. If it's simply a roll of the dice, then nearly all aspects to existence are pointless, there's no point in trying to think for oneself, etc. Perhaps this is what you truly intend to convey, but until you explicitly state this, this is an incoherent p…
shadowgovt said it very well and he speaks for me there. But I do believe that when hard work and preparation meets opportunity, good things happen. I'm not saying everything is pointless at all. I've earned every one of the few pennies I have the hard way, believe me. I have a non-stop work history going back to when I was 11 years old, grinding down spot welding tips on a lathe to buy my own video games and toys. M…
God damn, that is such an insult to the brilliance and uniqueness of a single individual such as Carmack.
> That's all that separates Carmack from swaths, or multitudes of programmers on HN.
I am astounded by HN's hatred for the extraordinary every day I remain on this putrid hellhole of a site.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jobs from another union. https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdi... (less industry-oriented source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-... ) See also: public sector unions.
Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...). Which is entirely the point! Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or…
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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jobs from another union. https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdi... (less industry-oriented source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-... ) See also: public sector unions.
Unions are comprised of large groups of people, and are subject to make the same kinds of "self-serving" mistakes as any other large group of people (like corporations and governments and universities and churches and...). Which is entirely the point! Why should we trust a large monopoly like Google to have workers' best interests at heart when there's no counter-balancing force with the same power (be it a union, or…
There is another counter balancing force...numerous other opportunities.
It's not a situation like Boeing where there's a very limited number of other places that you can take your skills.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#128Every major company I've worked for/with that has a large service workforce (Retail, MFG, etc) has "union avoidance" employees/training.
I recall my first week as a Best Buy part time tech in 2002, we watched a video on how Unions are bad.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…
Tesla: 5k review, 3.4 stars GM: 9k reviews, 4.0 stars GM is also higher rated on most metrics in the "Work Happiness" survey https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Tesla https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors
Are these representative samples?
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.
Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?
During the early phases of organization building, Google needed to build a huge army of engineers in a competitive hiring environment. To do that they had to convince potential hires that it would be morally acceptable to build the most sophisticated tracking/surveillance system in human history. (I don't think this was entirely cynical: I also think it was also necessary for the founders to convince themselves that this was all going to be ok.) Perhaps there's more, but that's the basic story behind "don't be evil."
But obviously organizations change. Much of Google's infrastructure now exists and nobody needs to be convinced to build it. Google/Alphabet also has new corporate leadership that is more beholden to the company's shareholders. Of course, one could point out that this was inevitable from the beginning: corporations can temporarily behave in "moral" ways, but (absent outside pressure) they won't necessarily stay that way.