Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism • Hacker News Board

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#121

Post by glogla » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

Miner49er wrote: post #3

Cronyism is the logical conclusion of capitalism.

Capitalism is not "markets", people have had markets at least as long as we've had agriculture. Capitalism is markets in pieces of paper such as government bonds, tulip futures, corporate stock, etc. Capitalism is a great platform for cronyism because it accumulates huge amounts of wealth in one place. Without capitalism the wages of corruption would be much less.

One colleague once told me capitalism is the natural state of world and that her dog was capitalist, because it picked up a stick and refused to let it go - and that is why socialism and communism (same thing for her) will never work.

When people consider your ideology "natural state of the world", you know your propaganda succeeded.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#122

Post by pydry » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #81

For the political experts out there, what would happen if we stopped allowing lobbying? That seems to me like the most obvious source of corruption. Edit: ok, I should have worded better. What if we stopped allowing corporate lobbying through donations to elected officials? I understand there would be loopholes to close, but isn't this the obvious source of government corruption?

There have been a lot of attempts to curtail wealth driven lobbying. Capital somehow overcomes all of them.

This inability of capital to help itself from corrupting lawmakers is apparently the fault of the state, not the fault of capitalism for reasons I can't quite fathom but might make sense if I had a lot more money.

If somebody emerged from poverty in the third world though, and capital was tangentially involved then lavish praise is apparently due.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#123

Post by vannevar » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

aww_dang wrote: post #61

The author makes an important distinction between state enabled cronyism and market activities. Comments here seem to be missing the point. Regulation is the pretense which enables cronyism. I enjoyed his appearance on the "Economics for entrepreneurs" podcast.

>Regulation is the pretense which enables cronyism.

Sort of, if you narrowly define cronyism as government favoritism. But it would be more accurate to say that capitalism itself encourages cronyism---in the absence of regulation, there is no need to rope in government officials and so the cronyism stays in the private sector. But it is no less cronyism. The article misses the real problem, which is that the over-concentration of capital that develops naturally in unregulated capitalism starves the general population of economic opportunities that they would otherwise have if the capital were more decentralized. It's also corrosive to democracy, which depends on the assumption that people are more or less equally empowered politically, at least within a few orders of magnitude.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#124

Post by skywal_l » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #108

vlunkr wrote: post #81

For the political experts out there, what would happen if we stopped allowing lobbying? That seems to me like the most obvious source of corruption. Edit: ok, I should have worded better. What if we stopped allowing corporate lobbying through donations to elected officials? I understand there would be loopholes to close, but isn't this the obvious source of government corruption?

Lobbying is just communicating your desires to your elected representative. If we stopped it, we stop democracy?

If we are discussing in good faith, the parent was probably talking about lobbying done by moneyed interests. Which is not necessary for democracy, itself a very broad term in its initial definition which does not include think tanks, political action comities and privately held mass media.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#125

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

lanevorockz wrote: post #45

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #18

Capitalism is not something that exists outside of government, governments create capitalism through property (and other) laws. And since capitalism forces firms to focus only on profit, it similarly forces them to attempt to corrupt government to increase their profits. The problem of cronyism exists inside of capitalism, not outside of it and not separable from it.

Of course Capitalism exists outside of the government. Look at the extremes: Capitalism : Mercantile Exchange were value is created by the providers and users. Socialism : Central Government sets values and controls every single aspect of your life.

Capitalism is based on rules of property and ownership, basically that I can own something, that you can't take it away from me through violence and that I can hire people to improve that something and they won't have an ownership stake on it (unless I want them to.) Those rules come from government. If you think about a society with no centralized rules on property and ownership, it wouldn't be very capitalistic, it would be much more like an anarchic steal-what-you-can system.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#126

Post by pram » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #95

OK so... the "no true scotsman" game between warring ideologies is what it is. Marx more or less invents "capitalism" in his critique of it. Pro capitalists then came in with their own definitions of capitalism. Later anti-communists insist(ed) that socialism=stalin, and capitalism means liberalism. Whatever. Capitalism means different things. I'm not going to unknot that mess. But... I will say that etymologically (…

I've also long been perturbed by the definition of capitalism largely focusing on markets, private property, and even entrepreneurship. Since those are like, as old as human civilization probably.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#127

Post by justinmchase » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

goodlinks wrote: post #102

mrkentutbabi wrote: post #66

Is wealth inequality necessarily bad? Genuine question here.

if there was a lottery defined 99% of your life outcomes at birth would that be a bad thing? if it was possible for an accumulation of wealth within one group to essentially divide humanity in different groups that could never be changed despite skill level compitance or morals of the individuals in each group would that be bad? so someone whose great great granddaddy did something now has power for no reason. and th…

The level of competition is such that you have to complete across multiple lifetimes. You happen to be in a large bucket with a lot of competition you have to be top 1% in that case to even go up to the next level, which includes successfully having children and putting them on a good path to be top 1% as well. Take risks and succeed.

The game is incredibly competitive and challenging and just understanding that is difficult.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#128

Post by serverholic » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #79

Corruption (Cronyism) is the route of issues in ALL economic systems (much worse in other systems such as autocracies, socialism, authoritarian socialism, etc). So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater (see US scientific accomplishments in the last decade). What needs to happen in the US to help right the ship is that the legal system needs to be tightened up and money needs to be significantly taken out of…

I definitely think there is a lot of "grass is greener" thinking going on right now. Especially amongst those on the far-left who are pushing communist/socialist ideas on twitter.

I had a discussion on reddit recently with a communist and the gist of their argument was basically:

1. I'm having a tough time in life because I have skills that aren't very profitable under capitalism.

2. Under communism the idea is 'from each according to their ability and to each according to their need'.

3. This removes the profit motive so my skills will be valued more under communism.

The problem is that these people aren't thinking about 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc order effects of their ideas. For example, profit isn't necessarily a bad thing. Profit encourages people build more things and efficiently use resources. You can't expect the same level of prosperity without a profit motive.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#129

Post by thrwn_frthr_awy » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #25

Miner49er wrote: post #3

Cronyism is the logical conclusion of capitalism.

As someone who lived in a communist system…no, cronyism is how you survive in a communist system. Otherwise you starve.

So you lived in a communist system with cronyism. That doesn’t invalidate OP statement. Cronyism is going to negatively affect all governments.

Re: Blame Cronyism, Not Capitalism

#130

Post by jkhdigital » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #81

For the political experts out there, what would happen if we stopped allowing lobbying? That seems to me like the most obvious source of corruption. Edit: ok, I should have worded better. What if we stopped allowing corporate lobbying through donations to elected officials? I understand there would be loopholes to close, but isn't this the obvious source of government corruption?

Lobbying, as it manifests in our (the United States, in my case) current form of governance, is a direct consequence of the fact that 538 people control how 30% of GDP is spent.