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India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

reuters.com

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Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#121

Post by betwixthewires »

LegitShady wrote: post #58
xtracto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hasnt been a problem forvseveral years. There are different options: - buy international prepaid cards for legal dervices (bitrefill) - use p2p local crypto exchanges: localcrypto, localmonero (in some countries this can be 100% anonymous by using the "withdraw from atm with 1 time code" bank services) - Exchange to alternate "tokens" that are legal (anyone remembers Linden dollars to BTC market around 2010?) -…

>buy international prepaid cards for legal dervices (bitrefill) within the country, you'd be committing a crime acquiring stuff using crypto. The cards are international but you're committing the act locally. >use p2p local crypto exchanges: localcrypto, localmonero (in some countries this can be 100% anonymous by using the "withdraw from atm with 1 time code" bank services) Will all be banned and illegal services. I…

Your point boils down to "but it will be illegal." The point you're responding to that you missed was "it doesn't matter if it is illegal, people will do it." All of those are just examples of ways to avoid getting caught. They're not solutions to it being illegal, they're solutions to getting caught.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#122

Post by csomar »

joe_the_user wrote: post #14
betwixthewires wrote: post #5

Well, they can try, but even with centralized exchanges, a VPN will do. And then there are decentralized protocols. Once you have some of your money in cryptocurrency there's no real way for anyone to stop you from moving your money around however you like. The only points that can be controlled are interfaces with banks.

If it's illegal to exchange goods or official currency for cryptocurrency in the nation you are in, the usefulness of cryptocurrency is going to be considerably constrained. This depends on how thorough or draconian the state is but a lot of people just shy away from illegal activity without enforcement being that strong. After all, if buy a tangible good, I want legal title to it and having engaged in an illegal tra…

This gets repeated a lot around here but is far from the truth. Drugs are still traded, and so are other "illegal" items. And trading drugs is quite risky comparing to trading crypto (especially fully decentralized).

> usefulness of cryptocurrency is going to be considerably constrained

Sure, but you are missing why 3rd worlds like China, India and Morocco are trying to restrict crypto. They are worried about capital outflows. It's not a surprise most of these countries already have rigid capital controls. People who have decided they want to "outflow" their capital are not really worried about government restrictions.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#123

Post by Tepix »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #110
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ransomware couldn't be implemented with cash.

False. Ransomware predates cryptocurrencies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGPCoder

You're right. But cryptocurrencies make it much easier for the criminal.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#124

Post by Zamicol »

abduhl wrote: post #102
Zamicol wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually efficient systems will implement zero knowledge proofs. Not necessarily because of "privacy", but because of the efficiency gains of such a system. Privacy is just a bi-product of this information theory reality.

The efficiency gains of these systems are irrelevant. Governments of the world want monetary control, and they cast that desire in the form of laws like "know your customer" or "anti-money laundering." These laws are antithetical to what you're talking about. If the government requires legitimate institutions to implement these forms of laws then to engage in actual society (i.e. - school, groceries, business, rent,…

Many chains, L1's, defi products, etc., have already expressed their eagerness to comply and implement KYC and other regulatory controls.

My warning is that the open-source Pandora's box of zk proofs is necessary, technically feasible, and inevitable. ZK proofs are coming, and there will be systems built on top of them. Our governments and societies need to be ready for this reality.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#125

Post by betwixthewires »

lottin wrote: post #97
rodolphoarruda wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checking possibilities here. Let's say you want to buy my house and I want to sell it to you. We are in India. You transfer crypto to my wallet then I, in return, donate my house to you. Would this donation work on the legal papers today? I suspect that in Brazil, where I live today, it would.

> You transfer crypto to my wallet then I, in return, donate my house to you. How would that work? Can't you just not donate the house, after they have given you their crypto?

Well obviously there's going to be a level of trust seeing as recourse is narrower, just like any black market transaction. Maybe even some possibility of extralegal recourse. But people can and therefore will do it.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#126

Post by Tepix »

TekMol wrote: post #15

Tokens like Bitcoin, Eth, NFTs etc are the only thing one can own in the digital space. So if a country makes the possession of cryptocurrencies illegal, it makes their people digitally possessionless. This would cut them off from the next version of the web. Similar to how North Korea cuts of their people from the current web. So far it seems no country that cuts of their people from the internet has been able to fl…

When you own property in real life the record of ownership is maintained by the city/state/country.

There's no reason why the ownership in digital space has to be on a decentralized blockchain, you can also record it centrally (as shown by trusted entities like VISA etc).

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#127

Post by cormacrelf »

sumtechguy wrote: post #93
Levitz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please argue how it is wrong? The logic seems pretty simple to me. A currency has value as long as it is exchanged, if government restricts exchanges, the currency drops in value.

Hmm, I can take a stab at this and probably be wrong myself. Money like everything is a market. There is a supply of money and a demand for money. If the demand remains constant but the supply is curtailed in some way I could see the value of the good exchanged going up. Now if you make the argument that this action would decrease the demand then yes the value should go down?

If you cannot use it for anything, and maybe it's illegal to even own it, why acquire it in the first place? It is demand that decreases. Supply that goes down simply to match lower demand does not necessarily outpace it and produce an overall price increase.

The difference between this and something like the 1920s alcohol black market in the US is exactly the point that people are raising when they talk about cryptocurrency lacking fundamental value. Alcohol has fundamental value (it is a drug with some effects that have proven to be valuable to many humans for thousands of years), but a currency does not have any value in isolation. People didn't stop wanting alcohol when it was banned, but they will stop wanting a currency if it is banned. It will not have a similar "constrained supply driving up the prices" effect to black market alcohol, because alcohol's demand never wavered but demand for cryptocurrencies will. It is not irrational to buy black market alcohol that you can drink or sell, but it is irrational to buy black market currency that you can neither drink nor sell.

This is all made generally moot if India is the only place to ban it, because they won't make a huge dent in the global market.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#128

Post by diab0lic »

rodolphoarruda wrote: post #74
PeterisP wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, no legitimate seller would be allowed to sell you physical goods for cryptocurrencies - you'd have to buy some physical goods abroad and then import them or the money (India does not have free movement of capital across the border).

Just checking possibilities here. Let's say you want to buy my house and I want to sell it to you. We are in India. You transfer crypto to my wallet then I, in return, donate my house to you. Would this donation work on the legal papers today? I suspect that in Brazil, where I live today, it would.

Two major issues with this;

1) I'm not familiar with tax laws in India (or Brazil) but in many places this would trigger gift taxes, imposing a large financial overhead to this transaction.

2) The regulatory bodies monitoring for illegal transactions will see right through this one.

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#129

Post by rvnx »

lottin wrote: post #97
rodolphoarruda wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checking possibilities here. Let's say you want to buy my house and I want to sell it to you. We are in India. You transfer crypto to my wallet then I, in return, donate my house to you. Would this donation work on the legal papers today? I suspect that in Brazil, where I live today, it would.

> You transfer crypto to my wallet then I, in return, donate my house to you. How would that work? Can't you just not donate the house, after they have given you their crypto?

Exchange your cryptos in a juridiction abroad where it's allowed (e.g. Singapore), and spend those savings. Problem solved. No ?

Re: India seeks to block most cryptocurrencies in new bill, government says

#130

Post by [deleted] »

romeros wrote: post #78
cletus wrote: post #51

Crypto is increasingly looking like a Ponzi scheme to me. I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion on HN but it's no less true. The fact is that blockchain solves a problem for almost nobody. The primary use seems to be to avoid real or threatened government intervention. These uses are largely illegal, by definition (eg bypassing capital controls in China). Now you can argue the morality of such laws but that…

This is really a popular opinion on HN. It is kind of self evident too. Defi, NFT, Crypto all have Ponzi features. The people who win are early investors and the ones who lose are those who are late to the game. So, we invent "new" schemes like NFT, Defi etc. There is no product. Nobody uses Defi to "borrow". 99.999% of the people want to put their crypto in and magically get some crazy XY.ABC% APR on their crypto. E…

[deleted]
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