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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#121
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Svelte doesn't support JSX/TSX though =( You have https://www.solidjs.com/ that does

Admittedly I haven't followed Svelte super closely, but isn't "no JSX/TSX" kind of a major ideological point? From reading the intro docs, it seems like separation of js/css/html is a selling point. JSX/TSX would contradict that, no? Just wondering if my read is correct or if there's some other reason it's been left off the table.

Nobody truly separates JS from HTML. You either have to put something HTMLish in the JS, or something JSish in the HTML (HTML itself supports this of course).

IMO the HTML-in-JS solutions (i.e. JSX) are superior to the JS-in-HTML solutions (e.g. Angular/Vue Templates) because they put the standardised turing-complete language in the driving seat rather than the propriety, hard to extend template language.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#122
post #83

So I'm a backend engineering, but have experience with Vue.js and like it. Why would I want to rethink that and try out Svelte? Reading about svelte the main advantage seems to be everything building to raw JS making it faster. Questions: Is there typescript support? I would assume, but... Does this end up with smaller bundles/js files? Any other major advantages? From some reading syntax seems pretty similar to Vue…

There is typescript support.

The TS ergonomics still have a long way to go, imo. Typing components is a little bizarre -https://github.com/sveltejs/language-tools/issues/442

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#123
post #118

Am I the only one? Next just bought its biggest upcoming competitor—SvelteKit. Next is the best that React has to offer but it still has flaws. Svelte and SvelteKit are so awesome you cannot believe it before you've built something bigger and so much ahead of the entire React ecosystem. We migrated a huge/complex React app in a month and the difference is night and day (performance/bundle size/dev productivity). Reac…

Svelte and Vue got started when someone just went and did it. If you think it's so important to have many competitors in this space, just go and do it :)

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#124
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I stupidly started some projects with SvelteKit instead of NextJS and am having a very hard time finding people to work on them.

I think the problem Svelte is having in this area is folks looks at it the same way they look at React, Angular and Vue. All those frameworks (especially React and Angular) have their own way of doing things, so you have to know "HTML, CSS, JS and React/Angular". I think folks think that Svelte is the same way, while it does have it's own special sauce, it's nothing compared to React/Angular. Like others have said, w…

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#125
post #118

Am I the only one? Next just bought its biggest upcoming competitor—SvelteKit. Next is the best that React has to offer but it still has flaws. Svelte and SvelteKit are so awesome you cannot believe it before you've built something bigger and so much ahead of the entire React ecosystem. We migrated a huge/complex React app in a month and the difference is night and day (performance/bundle size/dev productivity). Reac…

Feel free to make your own alternative, the world's your oyster.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#126

Awesome news! Having worked with frontend frameworks for years, I've grown pessimistic about them in general, but I'm enthusiastic about Svelte because it does so many things right that actually avoid a lot of the issues other frameworks claim to solve but actually make worse. Interacting with the Svelte compiler is ridiculously easy. Though the documentation can be improved, I found it trivial to import the Svelte c…

Ember was the first framework I used and also the most frustrating. At least with Vue and React I can poke at the internals and they make sense, but Ember's internals had so many oddities that thoroughly confused me.

What I like about Ember is that it gives a lot of rigid structure that, at least at one point, made it comparatively easy to work on multiple Ember based projects and be productive sooner.

As you've pointed out, a problem with that project is that there's a ton of intimate knowledge for how things work under the hood or why things are the way they are. They also seem to oscillate between opting for simplicity and opting for complexity and magic.

One example would be the latest version of Ember which doesn't even ship with `@ember/render-modifiers` by default despite how everyone will end up installing it out of necessity anyway.

Why might that be, you may ask?

> [...] we recommend using these modifiers with caution. They are very useful for quickly bridging the gap between classic components and Glimmer components, but they are still generally an anti-pattern.

https://github.com/emberjs/ember-render-modifiers

Why on earth did they reinvent components and ship them without providing the supposedly correct way of interacting with their lifecycle? You actually have to install a separate add-on to develop a production-ready app with Ember, which completely flies in the face of the idea that you can run `ember new` and have pretty much everything you need. Go ahead and try interacting with individual elements of a Glimmer component in a vanilla Ember project and see how productive and ambitious your web app will be.

Strangely (and thankfully), the RFC for what I think is a needlessly complicated alternative for lifecycle interaction is effectively stalled:

https://github.com/emberjs/rfcs/pull/567

By their own verbiage, the only official way to interact with component/element lifecycle is an antipattern.

So far Svelte and SvelteKit are avoiding all that extra crap. The day that Svelte calls its own solutions "antipatterns" and spends years pontificating things like the actor pattern will be a sad one.

/rant

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#127
post #118

Am I the only one? Next just bought its biggest upcoming competitor—SvelteKit. Next is the best that React has to offer but it still has flaws. Svelte and SvelteKit are so awesome you cannot believe it before you've built something bigger and so much ahead of the entire React ecosystem. We migrated a huge/complex React app in a month and the difference is night and day (performance/bundle size/dev productivity). Reac…

interesting that you think talking to a VC and starting a startup (where he would be spending >50% time on business things and be forced to come up with a monetization plan) is better for svelte than getting fulltime sponsorship to solely work on Svelte and working with the top tier talent at Vercel.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#128
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Svelte doesn't support JSX/TSX though =( You have https://www.solidjs.com/ that does

Admittedly I haven't followed Svelte super closely, but isn't "no JSX/TSX" kind of a major ideological point? From reading the intro docs, it seems like separation of js/css/html is a selling point. JSX/TSX would contradict that, no? Just wondering if my read is correct or if there's some other reason it's been left off the table.

it is. HTML is the first language of the web, not JS - this is why framework agnostic libraries are so much easier to use with Svelte than with React.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#130
post #109
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your React component renders, it returns an object that describes the desired state of the component tree. Take this component: function MyComponent() { return Here's bold text } At runtime, React calls your component function and then applies the returned data to the DOM imperatively. If your component has rendered before, React needs to _diff_ the virtual DOM your latest render returned against the VDOM React…

So it sounds like the tradeoff here is that the generated bundle is more complicated/bigger. I'm not familiar with Svelt, but wondering about bundle size + debuggability.

When I tried Svelte a while back (year or two ago) I had difficulty working with code in the debugger, couldn't seem to get source maps to work correctly, I wonder if it's fixed.
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